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View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron 140 30.91%
MJ (Michael or Maple) 232 51.21%
Therapist 7 1.55%
George Mikan 2 0.44%
Shaq Attaq 18 3.97%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo) 12 2.65%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan 18 3.97%
"Roger Murdock" 3 0.66%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?) 8 1.77%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh) 13 2.87%
Voters: 453. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-01-2013, 06:42 PM   #176
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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MJ woulda had 50 points on 30 shots.
In Jordan's 24-year old season (same age Bron was against Orlando), the Bulls lost to the Pistons in 5 games in Round 2. In the elimination game, MJ put up a 25/8/8 which isn't very far off from LeBron's 25/7/7.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:42 PM   #177
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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spoiler: same thing will happen with labron and his fans in 20 years
Your probably right. Just with Jordan theres this weird god like hero worship of him.

I posted this in the game thread but you just dont see this in other sports. When a guy retires, hes done, forgotten, its over with. Sure maybe there will be some compare and contrast here and there but its everyday with lebron, every time he plays a game Jordans name is mentioned.

Its like people cant accept the fact that he retired and there could be someone capable of surpassing him. His religious followers as i call them get defended at the notion someone could be better.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:46 PM   #178
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

I suppose. Jordan was right in wheelhouse of heroism for many men now in their mid-late 20's-30's.

Fwiw I am not on team MJ.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:47 PM   #179
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Your probably right. Just with Jordan theres this weird god like hero worship of him.

I posted this in the game thread but you just dont see this in other sports. When a guy retires, hes done, forgotten, its over with. Sure maybe there will be some compare and contrast here and there but its everyday with lebron, every time he plays a game Jordans name is mentioned.

Its like people cant accept the fact that he retired and there could be someone capable of surpassing him. His religious followers as i call them get defended at the notion someone could be better.
It's not that strange when there's a clear-cut GOAT, and then someone comes along who's roughly their equal. You see the same thing in golf with Tiger and Jack. It doesn't happen in the NFL because it's so hard to determine who the GOAT even was in the first place, and it hasn't happened in hockey because no one's really come close to Gretzky from a numbers perspective since he retired.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:48 PM   #180
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Still, that 25/7/7 game was far and away LeBron's worst game of the entire playoffs in 2009. This year he's averaging 26/7/7. I mean he's still playing great, and what he's doing works well with this team, but it's hard to say he's playing on the same level that he was then, let alone playing better.
see, this is the kind of thing people make fun of you for. Kobe had by far his best numbers when he had no other star with him, Jordan did the same, Lebron did the same. They didn't all get worse
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:48 PM   #181
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

a lot of people saying labron is better are taking into account the universal trend that everything gets better over time, has nothing to do with idealising labron himself. i'll have no problem knocking legoat off his perch when the time is right, i mean he's probably only 3-4yrs or so from getting supplanted as the best player itl (by durant mostly likely)
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:54 PM   #182
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Brow tho
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:58 PM   #183
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Old 06-01-2013, 07:00 PM   #184
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Still, that 25/7/7 game was far and away LeBron's worst game of the entire playoffs in 2009. This year he's averaging 26/7/7. I mean he's still playing great, and what he's doing works well with this team, but it's hard to say he's playing on the same level that he was then, let alone playing better.
Maybe its not as simple as this but the only thing i see is his usg was greater in the 09 playoffs. He was taking 5 more attempts/game.

But, I think most would concede that playoff run was his most impressive but the season as a whole looks better this year.

TS%: .591 vs .640
Hes just taking fewer shots and going to the FT line less. I feel like he could up his usg at any given time and when he needs to do so you see him do it.

Its close. I think the most impressive thing with watching him is his ability to defend 1 through 5. In Miami he has to do it out of necessity given their lineup structure. Im sure we could of seen it in Cleveland more but with their size it wasnt really necessary
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:00 PM   #185
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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see, this is the kind of thing people make fun of you for. Kobe had by far his best numbers when he had no other star with him, Jordan did the same, Lebron did the same. They didn't all get worse
LeBron also had his highest efficiency in the playoffs that year (.618 TS%). And wing players usually do peak from about 23-27, so it does make sense that Kobe, MJ, and LeBron might have all been at their best when they didn't have the greatest teammates.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:02 PM   #186
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

yeah, if only poor Kobe had someone better to play with in his prime than a 30 PER Shaq
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:04 PM   #187
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Had Derek Fisher in his prime too
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:07 PM   #188
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Your probably right. Just with Jordan theres this weird god like hero worship of him..
lol
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:07 PM   #189
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Kobe's last year with Shaq: 23.7 PER, .551 TS%, .210 WS/48
Kobe's first year w/o Shaq: 23.3 PER, .563 TS%, .145 WS/48

So yeah, I don't really think that all Kobe needed was bad teammates to put up huge numbers. He just peaked a little late, and didn't really grow into his game until the 05/06 season.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:17 PM   #190
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

anyone who thinks bron is > jordan should probably never post about basketball ever

lebron never had close to the same level as mental toughness or competitive intensity MJ brought to the game (and most everything else, for example wagering his entire season's salary on a blackjack hand)

and while lebron may go down as a great player, he will never be the type of iconic, transformative player jordan was

look at his performance - losing to the mavs
beating a historically weak and young thunder team after a lockout
all sorts of embarrassments before pat riley and wade taught him more about the what the game is really about

and while his stats now are very good - the overall talent level of the league is lower than it was in jordan's day

if lebron was really capable of being a GOAT player people wouldn't need to start assembling flim-flam cases a decade before it could even be close to credible

but the reason they have to is because it will never pass the eye test, the historical test, or anyone mind's with a scrap of reasonable judgment

Last edited by monikrazy; 06-01-2013 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:22 PM   #191
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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anyone who thinks bron is > jordan should probably never post about basketball ever
I think most people are not saying if lebron retired today his career would be > MJ.

But comparing first 10 seasons, upto age 28. Peak stretches in career, etc. Then yea certainly you can say Lebron > MJ.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:23 PM   #192
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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anyone who thinks bron is > jordan should probably never post about basketball ever
Have fun discussing basketball with trainwreck, leotrollstoy, scherer and bandz.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:31 PM   #193
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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a lot of people saying labron is better are taking into account the universal trend that everything gets better over time, has nothing to do with idealising labron himself. i'll have no problem knocking legoat off his perch when the time is right, i mean he's probably only 3-4yrs or so from getting supplanted as the best player itl (by durant mostly likely)
an unlikely troll winner
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:33 PM   #194
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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lebron never had close to the same level as mental toughness or competitive intensity MJ brought to the game
says who?

or is this based on the fact that one laughs from time to time and the other is one of the most notoriously awful human beings to ever play basketball?

none of this is to say lebron is definitively or even will be regarded in the end as better than jordan, but there are plenty of points to use to argue jordan > lebron. let's not settle for superfluous cliches that are objectively impossible to prove
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:41 PM   #195
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

nice troll moni. got a couple to fall for it.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:42 PM   #196
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I'm also a big fan of the "but LeBrons teammates weren't better" argument because guess what? LeBron joined his buddies in south beach, had a 2-1 lead in the finals, then got cocky and decided to mock Dirks illness with gay wade coughing for cameras that lit a fire in Dirk LeBron is incapable of.

Oh yeah, they lost that lead and series.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:47 PM   #197
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Jordan is God and if any player does anything differently from him they are committing a sin to the game of basketball.

Lebron and Durant workout together: Jordan wouldnt do that
Lebron exercised his right to FA: Jordan wouldnt do that.

Juwan Howard yelled at his teammates at halftime: Jordan wouldnt allow Bill Wennington to yell.

Lebron had a laugh with paul george after they had a great exchange: Jordan wouldnt do that.

And none of this means anything.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:49 PM   #198
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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I'm also a big fan of the "but LeBrons teammates weren't better" argument because guess what? LeBron joined his buddies in south beach, had a 2-1 lead in the finals, then got cocky and decided to mock Dirks illness with gay wade coughing for cameras that lit a fire in Dirk LeBron is incapable of.

Oh yeah, they lost that lead and series.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:57 PM   #199
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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says who?

or is this based on the fact that one laughs from time to time and the other is one of the most notoriously awful human beings to ever play basketball?

none of this is to say lebron is definitively or even will be regarded in the end as better than jordan, but there are plenty of points to use to argue jordan > lebron. let's not settle for superfluous cliches that are objectively impossible to prove
Are you really advocating that lebron is as 'competive and mentally tough' as MJ was?

(Winning) psychology seems like a pretty normal thing to discuss in the context of greatest-of-all-time players.

And it seems perfectly fair to suggest that Lebron mental approach to the game was markedly weaker than other great players until he

- handpicked 2 superstars to play with him, including SACRIFICING salary - clearly trading $$$$ for mental infirmities

- handpicking hall of famer Pat Riley to manage his team

- **losing championships / playoffs / choking

- negative media about the decision faded
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:00 PM   #200
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

What is the betting line for LBJ titles? At 1 now and a 75-80% favorite to be at 2 before the end of the year. He is 28 (turns 29 in late December). o/u 5.5 with over being a money favorite?
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