you do realize that Jordan only played 18 games in 85-86, and that's probably a big reason why they drew the '86 Celtics in the 1st round, he wasn't "slacking off"

also in your moranic analysis you're penalizing Jordan for making the playoffs the first couple years with bad teams / rewarding labron for not

and what is labron's excuse for not winning in 2011? in his prime, great supporting cast, etc. think i was pulling for him in 2012, but now i kinda wish he didn't win so this lechoke narrative would have continued (sorta like when Peyton won his single RANG). this 2013 Final should do a lot for his story as well.

ok serious question time, how many RANGZ do people think labron will end up with?

6

Yes, there is. It takes much, much more skill to get to the NBA Finals. LeBron made it to the NBA Finals surrounded by a bunch of scrubs at age 22. Michael couldn't even make it to the second round until age 24. This is a huge point in LeBron's favor.


"After getting acclimated", LeBron never lost in a Finals either. He's 1-0 since turning 27. Before that age, LeBron made it an average of one round further in the playoffs than Jordan every year. This is another point in LeBron's favor. Losing in the 2nd round > losing in the 1st round, losing in the conference finals > losing in the 2nd round, and losing in the NBA Finals > losing in the conference finals. The fact that people somehow think it's a point for MJ that LeBron beating MJ by one round every year before winning a ring absolutely boggles my mind. Oh, "LeBron can never be as good as MJ because he lost in the NBA Finals instead of the conference finals". Say what? That's completely back-ass-wards.

2-3 more as a player, and 2 more as a analytics-oriented owner/GM

so everybody is just trolling everybody itt, right?

OK, so what about 84-85 and 85-87? Also, the fact that the Bulls got a 7 seed with MJ the two years surrounding getting an 8 seed without him doesn't exactly work in his favor for him being super-duper valuable.

LeBron first made the playoffs as a 21-year old in 2005/2006. Michael Jordan first made the playoffs as a 21-year old in 1984/1985. The only difference is LeBron played at a little higher level during his developmental seasons.

Yeah, he had a bad season in 2011. I'd tend to judge people more on what they did accomplish than on their worst season though. As for how many RANGZ Bron finishes with, I'd probably guess 6. Pretty hard to run as good in the Finals as MJ did, but he'll have more prime seasons so it should even out.

I dunno if people are trolling, but everyone is slurping hard. Whether it's MJ's will to win or Lashook's will to PER, slurpers ghana slurp.

u are all insane

that's one way of putting it. here's another way

scottie pippen and michael jordan played together for 10 seasons. in that 10 season span, this is the PER of every player on the bulls roster:



so what does this tell us...

there is more evidence suggesting the bulls didn't start winning titles because jordan got acclimated/more mature/some other immeasurable subjective crap, but rather the bulls started winning titles cuz of pippen, jackson, and an all around universal improvement of supporting cast. jordan remained consistent from his pre-jackson stretch while instead of being the only player above a 20 PER, there was at least 2 of those players every year for his last 6 seasons and in some instances a 3rd player at 20

i thought you guys quit sortingbyPER like 3 years ago?

Jack and Jordan.

Both Tiger and LeBron have ~30-35% chance to get there as of now, neither are there yet despite what they've shown so far. If both died tomorrow neither would be there.

off to dkgo this thread

edit: SRM, aren't those last 3 years 96-98?

woah. cavs were big big dogs vs the celtics in 08.

haha. kinda like how ppl criticize lebron for making the finals with the woat supporting cast and getting trounced by a dynasty spurs.

the worshipers of MJ are realizing their hero is in the midst of being passed by someone else and will stoop to any level to defend their guy. They dont know what to do and feel defenseless as the they feel the pressure of the walls closing in on them. Its kind of funny and kind of sad at the same time.

Yeah I think he's SIGNIFICANTLY better now than he was in 2009. His better outside shooting is exactly what his "haters" were yapping out being important to open up the rest of his game vs. good defenses. There's a reason playoff defenses could "stop" him in other years and can't anymore.

PER is good but flawed. Doesn't even tell like 60% of the story, which is why sorting by it for stuff like this is so bad.

his outside shooting and much improved post game certainly help, but a much bigger reason teams can't stop him right now is that he's playing with better teammates. I agree that he's a better player today though.

I mean, whether it's Haslem,/Ilgauskas/Bosh, Chalmers, or Mo Williams, I don't think it matters hugely. His supporting casts in Cleveland were good supporting players. Obviously he had no one close to Wade back then and that's certainly made a huge difference, but I think if you put this LeBron on those teams with better shooting and much more mental maturity, you see a difference result a large % of the time. It wouldn't have mattered against the Spurs most likely but the losses to Orlando, Boston, and certainly Dallas don't happen with this LeBron.

well, Orlando didn't stop Lebron, his "more limited" self completely destroyed that team and it still wasn't enough, so I disagree there. Boston's D was very good, comparable to the Spurs, so that's doubtful too.

spoiler: same thing will happen with labron and his fans in 20 years

at some point in the not-so-distant future there's gonna be someone like 7'1 280 who can move like lebron and shoot 3s

that person is a lock to be the goat

You're crazy. LeBron played INSANE against Orlando. You could take Bron's best playoff series of his career or MJ's best playoff series of his career, and it still wouldn't matter. The Magic still would have won. Bron's supporting cast just gave him nothing. Here are Bron's game-by-game stats for the series:

Game 1: 49 points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists (20/30 FG, 3/6 3P, 6/10 FT)
Game 2: 35 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists (12/23 FG, 1/3 3P, 10/12 FT), hit buzzer-beating 3 to win
Game 3: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists (11/28 FG, 1/8 3P, 18/24 FT)
Game 4: 44 points, 12 rebounds, 7 assists (13/29 FG, 4/10 3P, 14/18 FT), hit 2 FTs with 0.5 seconds left to send game to OT
Game 5: 37 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists (11/24 FG, 0/2 3P , 15/19 FT)
Game 6: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists (8/20 FG, 2/8 3P, 7/11 FT)

can only have one true alpha male in a family. no surprise kobe had daughters.

Yeah I'll concede the Orlando series I suppose. I wasn't remembering that one correctly and he did hit one sick game-winner. Still seemed like he could have done more at the time. 25 points on 8-20 shooting in the elimination game isn't very GOATlike.

MJ woulda had 50 points on 30 shots.

Still, that 25/7/7 game was far and away LeBron's worst game of the entire playoffs in 2009. This year he's averaging 26/7/7. I mean he's still playing great, and what he's doing works well with this team, but it's hard to say he's playing on the same level that he was then, let alone playing better.