This is an interesting narrative. If LeBron can create an open dunk/layup, an open 3, and/or an open midrange jumper at will (along with his admittedly elite passing skills), this should show up in his statistics somewhere, and his teams should be completely and utterly dominant (even more so than other all time greats).

Oddly, what the facts show us, is that LeBron has only one scoring title in 18 (!!!) seasons. In his prime, he is statistically a bit worse than Jordan across all commonly used advanced metrics. He does have the longevity/more seasons played advantage, but that’s definitely not what you’re saying here.

This could be countered if his teams utterly dominated, and always performed above expectations. Maybe his stats underrate him. He must have like 7+ titles in 18 (!!!) seasons when he has gotten to play with the likes of Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, and a bunch of excellent role players.

Wait a minute, what’s going on here. He only has 4 titles with the likes of those players in 18 (!!!) seasons?? Are you sure you’re perhaps not overrating LeBron a bit when you say he’s the best to ever play basketball at all the things, and is so good he can create dunks at will? Jeez, if someone can create dunks at will, I would think they’d be almost undefeated? Shouldn’t he have better stats or more rings than Jordan when he’s played way more seasons?

Thinking Paxton and Kerr shot is comparable to Allen is pretty hilarious .

uhh, it does show up the stats. and in the titles. but keep denying reality.

LeBron is an elite passer, elite playmaker, and due to his size/strength and athleticism he is one of the most versatile players of all time.

What you’re ALSO saying (and this is obviously completely wrong on the surface), is that he’s such a good and skilled scorer he can literally find an open midrange shot, open 3, and/or a dunk/layup at will. If this were true, he would have more than one scoring title in 18 years and he’d be a superior scorer to Jordan. Furthermore, a player with this skill set PLUS the above (passing, versatility, playmaking) would be so outright dominant he would have easily won 4/4 in Miami. And wouldn’t have lost in the weak east to Boston and Orlando, and would have actually made the playoffs his first two years and made more than one finals before he started superteam hopping. He would have more ppg, a lower turnover rate, and a higher bpm, for example.

None of this is true, therefore we know LeBron could not have been as elite of a scorer as you claim. Jordan was FAR better at this, and he was so good at this he was able to dominate defenses both on and off the ball in multiple offensive systems, leading to two 3 peats as really their only elite scorer, and winning 10 scoring titles in the process while averaging as high as 37.1 ppg in a season with good efficiency and no help and 33-35 ppg with elite efficiency and no help. You couldn’t possibly be more wrong. QED (literally)

I wondered how his shooting percentages always seem better than he seems as a shooter. He throws lots of bricks up on FGs and FTs that great shooters just don't do. And I don't think his finishing is all that good going to the hole. Yet his % is good from the field. I guess 89% uncontested could account for this.

LeBron is one of the greatest finishers in NBA history at the rim. He shoots 73.5% from 0-3 feet for his career. By comparison, Shaquille O’Neal shot 74.5%. Jordan we only have data from his age 33 season on but he was far worse, averaging 52% in ‘97 and 64% in ‘98 on much lower volume.

LeBron is also one of the best shooters in the entire NBA at his volume from long 3 point attempts.

Yeah sure, but he doesn't "look" like that's true. Can't argue with how I feel bro.

we were obv talking about team shots. liars lie tho.

MJ is Rocky and Lebron is Tommy Gunn. Lebron can win the next 10 championships, but the reality is if he dies tomorrow there a handful of people that would care and he would never get the send off that Kobe got. Guess it sucks to be a pathetic excuse of a human being.

ya maybe Lebron should start raping if he wants to be as loved as Kobe

Oh wow. So you’re saying he can create an open dunk/layup, open midrange jumper, and/or open 3 for his entire offense at will? Because that’s even more wrong. Can you imagine how good a team would actually be with a player like that on the court? They’d literally never lose. A player like that definitely wouldn’t need a superteam to win 4 titles in 18 seasons. And would probably average more than 7 assists per game for his career lol.

Those darn recorded statistics and results of actual games. Always ****ing up the stan eye test narratives.

Imagine thinking that not only is Lebron not all that good at basketball, but also that he's a "pathetic excuse for a human being".

Bron sucks at finishing. Those stats are a joke. I guess the 89% thing means he's basically shooting free throws virtually all the time. So that seems to explain some things.

liars lie. keep lying liar.

Why does he suck at finishing? Cause you dislike him?

Taking off my totes unbiased Leborn stan hat for a moment here: in all serialness, when does Leborn get an invitation to join the Justice League, since he’s the best in the world at all the things, and the only reason this doesn’t show up in measurable thingamajigs like statistics and championships is bc it’s all his darn scrub teammates faults? Like can you imagine how good Leborn would be if he had the flash and bugs bunny as teammates instead of scrubs like Anthony Davis and Dwyane Wade?

Also does he challenge Superman and Batman immediately to take leadership? Or does he sandbag it a bit and let JJ Barea and Jason Kidd shut him down the first year before he goes super saiyan and passes to Ray Allen for a 3 pointer that only Leborn could pass?

it does show up in the stats. and in championships. thats how you are lying.

you do realize those guys were not on his team for his entire career? another way you are lying.

Your first two sentences are correct. LeBron has slightly (but measurably) inferior peak stats to Jordan, according to the best advanced stats we currently have publicly available. Therefore we have a pretty good first guess he’s worse than Jordan, as long as we are not sorting by height and muscles and instead, actual basketball results.

He averages about 7 assists per game over his career, so we also know he cannot create open 3’s, dunks, and midrange jumpers at will. Because someone that can create offense in the NBA that easily would do so to uh, win more games and championships.

For similar reasons, we know he cannot create those shots at will for himself, and the statistics also show Jordan was better than him at that by a pretty large margin. (Note: this all assumes you are looking at the statistics correctly, and not cherry picking or literally combing through an infinite number of stats to find one stat that LeBon may have been a bit better in for a season or two. It does require a modest amount of intelligence and intellectual honesty.)

Lastly, we know that since Jordan has 6 titles in 15 seasons played (with two of those old post retirement Jordan, one broken foot, one partial baseball. So more like 11 full/complete seasons where it makes sense to evaluate him) vs LeBron’s 4 titles (1 shortened pandemic season, 1 shortened lockout season) in 18 seasons, we also know those slightly, but measurably, superior statistics translate to FAR more team success. In other words, Jordan’s skills and contributions integrate better with a successful team (ie he’s not just stat whoring for LeImage), meaning he’s almost certainly the better player. Again, as long as you’re measuring “better player” as ability to contribute to winning basketball games, and not by height, muscles, or that sweet bounce pass LeBon made the other night that made your eye test twinkle.

So to reiterate Vict0r, your first two sentences are correct. This does all show up in the stats and championship results.

Unfortunately your third sentence does not follow from the first two. This seems like psychological projection to me. I notice that 1) you like to argue using vague wording on purpose, and then when someone else calls you out on your bs you pretend you meant something else, and then you call the person a liar. I will give you a pass on this though because I think you’re around 13 years old. Also 2) LeStans like to make up a lot of complete bullshit statistical arguments and construct ridiculous narratives that make no sense if not for cherry picking or interpreting the stat completely incorrectly. I will not give you a pass on this, 13 years old or not, because it is endemic to the LeStan population as a whole. I will push you on this until you fix your LeCognitive biases, because I believe my teachings will help your in your future life as you grow older and escape nephew status.


There’s that whole LeLying accusation again. Vict0r, do u believe someone has to play with another player for his entire career to benefit from playing with said player and increase his championship equity? I have no idea what this has to do with lying, not lying, or whatever, but you’re 13 so I expect you to argue like a spoiled teenager that forgot his LeBron themed lunchbox at home. No offense taken.

This awful take should disqualify any opinion you have on this subject.

Lebron faced far tougher competition and rules.

How good do you think the top competition in Jordan’s era would fare if we fast forwarded their careers ~10 years to intersect with LeBron’s? To throw some names out there: Shaquille O’Neal, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, Allen Iverson, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, David Robinson, Shawn Kemp, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Clyde Drexler, Jason Kidd.

You can pretend for a minute that some of these players’ careers didn’t overlap with LeBron, and give me the answer that best corroborates your feels.

I, for one, wonder how good a prime Jason Kidd would fare in 2011 and a prime Tim Duncan would do in 2014. It’s a shame they were pushing 40 when they went up against Leborn’s hand picked superteam. What could have been. We would immediately have the answer to whether the 2010’s were far superior to the competition in the 90’s.

What rules today is tougher , than getting hit every time u get to the rim risking to get injured ?
Mj never fought great competition as Lebron did ...
Really ??

All stars = that specific year .
HoF = futur Hall of fame

First THE worst defeat in mj career :
Buck (59 win) in his 1985 rookie year facing 2 all stars / 1 HoF

Orlando (57 win) in his 1995 return facing 2 all stars / 1 HoF



The rest :

Boston 1986 (67 win) facing 3 all stars / 5 HoF & the mvp /nba champion

Boston 1987 (59 win) facing 3 all stars / 5 HoF & the mvp

Detroit 1988 (54 win) facing 1 all star / 4 HoF / lost in 7 game nba final

Detroit 1989 ( 63 win) facing 1 all star / 4 HoF / nba champion
( ho yes that year the piston swept every team including the lakers and boston and only mj was able to win 2 games ...)

Detroit 1990 (59 win) facing 3 all stars / 3 HoF / nba champion

And that is just in his own conference ...
We are not even talking about the lakers in the west in the 80s !



And than I hear complaints ( as usual from Lebron) about poor Lebron he had sometimes ( not every freakn year ) tough competition only in the finals ???
Lol !

That is far from being weak failure by MJ , beside his 2 worst defeats ( that are perfectly understandable).
So since he won the rest , let’s blame weak competition instead of calling it what it is :
MJ was too strong once he had any kind of help .


Ps to victor : Like Matt said, Jason Kidd at 37 with dirk were able to beat prime Lebron with 2 all stars !
Yeah 90s player sucks big time ....o0

He's a bricklayer and rejection victim when driving. Not much finishing skill and finesse. Oddly doesn't elevate much when driving, can't adjust well. Zion is way better finisher.

I don't dislike James at all. It's just that when competing for GOAT, major weaknesses are frowned on. I call him the "GOAT statistically but not the GOAT." Kind of an A-Rod clone.

I'm on the Jordan side, but I'm gonna bow out of these arguement probably.

You guys are too clueless. You bash both MJ & Lebron, you bash all there best
teammates. Again, I'm on the Jordan side, but saying things like Lebron sucks at
finishing. He doesn't suck at anything. Were probably arguing the #1 & #2 players
over the last 25 years of basketball. Neither one sucks there both amazing.

Its just one bad point after another from you guys. One guy saying the warriors weren't good till KD got there, wtf they won 73 games. Saying Klay Thompson isn't good.
Another guy telling me Pippen wasn't good. He was only a MVP candidate the year Jordan left.

Its all just so crazy. Using PER on everything when the era's are completely different.
The scoring averages are different. Using PER on Dennis Rodman, probably the craziest thing I've seen.

Again these are probably the 2 best players. There both amazing.
Pippen, Rodman, Thompson, Irving, A Davis, D Wade, Bosh, All great players period
They both had amazing players to play with like all great players.

Can you guys think logically instead of I like MJ therefore MJ"s teammattes suck and he did it on his own, and Lebron sucks, Or vice vera.