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View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron 176 31.77%
MJ (Michael or Maple) 286 51.62%
Therapist 8 1.44%
George Mikan 4 0.72%
Shaq Attaq 19 3.43%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo) 12 2.17%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan 20 3.61%
"Roger Murdock" 3 0.54%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?) 9 1.62%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh) 17 3.07%
Voters: 554. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-08-2021, 11:48 AM   #15776
fasterlearner
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

This is all stupid. These guys using stats they really don't understand. All sports
change and evolve.

Using stats would be the absolute worst in hockey. You can sit there and argue W gretzky was twice as good as mcdavid because he scored 92 goals and mcdavid has yet to reach 50. Gretzky must be so so so so so much better the stats say so.

You guys are ******ed. You don't know how to use your eyes. My above example is perfect. Comparing stats today to 30 years ago is complete insanity, most so in hockey.
In that case guys like bernie nichols are better than connor mcdavid. But he scored 65 goals one year more than connor he must be better.

Pippen was one of the greatest defensive players ever. You guys no nothing of basketball. Lets compare stats now of todays players in a much more offensive game to yester years. That makes sense.
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Old 05-08-2021, 01:43 PM   #15777
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

well if we are gonna go eye test then its lolololol to even think that Jordan could touch Lebron. and its even more of a joke to think that the players of that era, and the defense of that era, could come close to the nowadays.

sports evolve. Lebron has goated up the best competition in the history of the NBA.

hes as big as Karl Malone. with the athleticism of an all time great wing. can pass like a PG. can get to the rim at will. the weakest part of his game is that he is merely a good outside shooter.

oh and hes the most clutch player of all time.
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Old 05-08-2021, 02:44 PM   #15778
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Last 2 posts nail the reality of this.
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Old 05-08-2021, 05:03 PM   #15779
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post
This is all stupid. These guys using stats they really don't understand. All sports
change and evolve.

Using stats would be the absolute worst in hockey. You can sit there and argue W gretzky was twice as good as mcdavid because he scored 92 goals and mcdavid has yet to reach 50. Gretzky must be so so so so so much better the stats say so.

You guys are ******ed. You don't know how to use your eyes. My above example is perfect. Comparing stats today to 30 years ago is complete insanity, most so in hockey.
In that case guys like bernie nichols are better than connor mcdavid. But he scored 65 goals one year more than connor he must be better.

Pippen was one of the greatest defensive players ever. You guys no nothing of basketball. Lets compare stats now of todays players in a much more offensive game to yester years. That makes sense.
Well hold on a bit .....
Are you saying gretzky wouldn’t dominate today as well ?

Just to be clear, jagr who was as close as anyone to gretzky and Lemieux , was able to score 27 goals at 42 years old not long ago in the nhl !
42 years old .....

Obv taking one of his best season as a comparison is stupid but if you take the average , I doubt he wouldn’t be as good .
42 goals /93 assist for gretzky per year is certainly possible in this nhl time .
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Old 05-08-2021, 05:18 PM   #15780
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post
Jordan stans down playing Pippen and Bron fans down playing his teammates never gets old.
The whole conversation seems so 2018, I dunno how they're gonna keep it going once LeBron is not 1 of the best in the world/retired. Been beaten to death.

You would think who is going to be considered better is going to be unveiled soon and anyone on the wrong side of history will be purged with the intensity people have for this.

Brady probably finish with more rings than these 2 combined either way
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Old 05-08-2021, 06:13 PM   #15781
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3balI View Post
Lebron had 6 HOF teammates - Ray Allen, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love

Jordan had 1 HOF teammate - Pippen (Rodman was HOF but so was Shaq or Ben Wallace)
Ray Allen counts but Rodman doesn't? Allen was a role player on the Heat, Rodman was still extremely valuable.
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Old 05-08-2021, 06:18 PM   #15782
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

if Kevin Love makes the HOF then HOF is a joke, dude had like 3 good years lol

came hard with that 8 and 6 in the 2016 nba finals, man Bron couldn't have done it w/o him (trading #1 pick for him shows Bron GMing gm not as good as his bball 1 tho)
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Old 05-08-2021, 06:28 PM   #15783
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Yeah, Rodman had a huge role in 96 and 97. Had dropped off in 98
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Old 05-09-2021, 05:35 AM   #15784
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post
Yeah, Rodman had a huge role in 96 and 97. Had dropped off in 98

Both Jordan and Rodman averaged 8 rebounds in the 1997 Playoffs.

So Rodman was weak at his primary value (rebounding), which contributed to his below-replacement value in those Playoffs - basically anyone would've been better in his place and Jordan already 3-peated with Horace - they actually won the 97' and 98' titles in spite of Rodman.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post
Yeah, Rodman had a huge role in 96 and 97. Had dropped off in 98

PLAYOFFS

10' VAREJAO.... 1.2 DBPM.. 103 DRTG... 0.1 VORP.. 0.105 WS/48.. 11.6 PER
09' VAREJAO.... 1.7 DBPM.. 100 DRTG... 0.3 VORP.. 0.138 WS/48.. 13.0 PER
97' RODMAN.... 0.1 DBPM.. 101 DRTG.. -0.1 VORP.. 0.074 WS/48'... 7.9 PER


Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', while Varejao was all-defense in 2010..

In addition to Varejao, Shaq's playoff performance also destroyed 97' Rodman, and it's easy to see how the 90's Bulls would've cruised to the title with an old Shaq in the goat triangle..

Shaq averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks in the 2010 regular season (all-star MVP in 2009), which would've been the best center performance that Jordan ever had by far.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post
Yeah, Rodman had a huge role in 96 and 97. Had dropped off in 98

You guys are just falling for the bleached hair and wedding dress that made Rodman a star - he otherwise wasn't a star and was just a leading rebounder like say, Drummond... at his BEST... his Bulls' career was infact a washed player living off his reputation and ahead-of-his-time branding.

He's one of the many role players that ran good to play with all-time players and organizations, otherwise he wouldn't be ranked nearly as high because he wouldn't have won..

It's the same thing with Pippen - Pippen is the only 2nd option that gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option... aka McHale doesn't get ranked over Ewing due to rings, but Pippen does - so imagine if Klay was ranked over Beal due to rings - it's like that... The rings also inflated Pippen's media awards, despite never having a dominant series or elite production and always being a secondary option/producter.
.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-09-2021 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 05-09-2021, 07:51 AM   #15785
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Using PER for Rodman.

Excellent work.
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:13 AM   #15786
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

using counting/rate stats for defensive stars, the best of 3bali.
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Old 05-09-2021, 07:03 PM   #15787
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Excellent work.


Jordan 3-peated with Horace and then with old Rodman - either player could be called Jordan's 2nd best teammate, and both are a couple dimensions below Lebron's 2nd best teammate (Wade), or 3rd best teammate (Kyrie), or 4th best teammate (Bosh), or 5th best teammate (Love).

It's not even close - Lebron had far better teammates and any attempts to boost the obvious role players that Jordan carried sounds desperate.

We already showed how all-defense Varejao destroyed old Rodman from 97' or 98' Playoffs, as did 10' Shaq



Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Using PER for Rodman.


I cited Rodman's inferior defensive stats across the board, and then included PER as a reminder of his overall liability.

Ultimately, peak Robinson couldn't do anything with Rodman because Robinson couldn't score sufficiently (especially in the Playoffs) to offset the Rodman liability... Otoh, Jordan was the opposite of Robinson by carrying the goat scoring/clutch load required to win with Rodman.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Using PER for Rodman.


You said Rodman had a "big role" in the 97' Playoffs, but he averaged 8 rebounds (same as the SG).

So anyone would've been better in his place and Jordan already 3-peated with Horace - they won the 97' and 98' titles in spite of Rodman, who wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs



Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Using PER for Rodman.


Okay, we can take PER out:


PLAYOFFS

10' VAREJAO.... 1.2 DBPM.. 103 DRTG... 0.1 VORP.. 0.105 WS/48
09' VAREJAO.... 1.7 DBPM.. 100 DRTG... 0.3 VORP.. 0.138 WS/48
97' RODMAN.... 0.1 DBPM.. 101 DRTG.. -0.1 VORP.. 0.074 WS/48


Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98', while Varejao was all-defense in 2010..

In addition to Varejao, Shaq's playoff performance also destroyed 97' Rodman, and it's easy to see how the 90's Bulls would've cruised to the title with an old Shaq in the goat triangle.

Shaq averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks in the 2010 regular season (all-star MVP in 2009), which would've been the best center performance that Jordan ever had by far.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Excellent work.


It's clear that you guys are just falling for the bleached hair and wedding dress that made Rodman a star.

He's one of the many role players that ran good to play with all-time players and organizations, otherwise he wouldn't be ranked nearly as high because he wouldn't have won..

Pippen is the same way - he's ranked higher due to rings, which also inflated his media awards.. Pippen is the only 2nd option that gets credit for rings like a 1st option - so someone like McHale isn't ranked higher than Ewing due to rings, but Pippen is - it's similar to if Klay was ranked higher than Beal due to rings.. this dynamic proves that Pippen is rated incorrectly and vastly overrated - the production rate stats have him about 150th, but the winning spotlight inflates him to top 50
.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-09-2021 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:47 PM   #15788
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Ray Allen counts but Rodman doesn't? Allen was a role player on the Heat, Rodman was still extremely valuable.

Okay, let's exclude old Ray Allen and Rodman - Lebron still has 5 HOF teammates to 1 for Jordan.

Jordan's 2nd best teammate was actually Horace Grant, but regardless, Horace or Rodman don't compare to Lebron's 2nd best teammate (Wade), or 3rd (Kyrie), or 4th (Bosh) or 5th (Love).

Ultimately, Jordan built a lottery roster into league favorites, while Lebron was granted favorite status in Year 1 by hand-picking the pre-season favorite from 11-16'.. Jordan's favorites never lost, while Lebron's fell to underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle.

So Lebron needed a super-team to win (and still mostly lost), or he needed to be "pippen" to AD, while Jordan won 6 chips without super-teams or 1b's and dominating to the highest degree (MVP's, scoring titles and all-defense throughout his 30's)
.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-09-2021 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 05-09-2021, 10:13 PM   #15789
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post

using counting/rate stats for defensive stars, the best of 3bali.


The Bulls only needed a #7 defense to win the 1st three-peat, so they didn't necessarily need defenders like Pippen or Rodman and could've won with anyone that allowed a #7 defense.. For example, the 10' Cavs had the #7 defense with all-defender Varejao, or the 09' Cavs had the #3 defense.. The 11' and 12' Heat had the #5 defense.

Since the 1st three-peat Bulls lacked a top defense and had inferior defenses to Finals and ECF opponents, it was their goat OFFENSE that made them a goat team and different from peers.. However, that offense had no 3rd scoring option and a "true" 2nd option that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (rare for winning 2nd options).



Quote:
Originally Posted by capone

using counting/rate stats for defensive stars, the best of 3bali.


Rings don't count when evaluating 2nd options otherwise Klay would get ranked over Beal due to rings

And that's why Pippen is rated incorrectly - he shouldn't get rated over Ewing due to rings just like McHale isn't.. he's the only 2nd option that gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option, and the rings also inflate his media awards..

Ultimately, the production rate stats have him about 150th, but the winning spotlight inflates him to top 50
.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-09-2021 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:36 PM   #15790
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

you banana's don't even understand that Pippen was 3rd in
MVP voting the year Jordan was AFK. You really don't understand
basketball.

Then you critisize Rodman. Again you have no idea the athlete freak
this guy was.

I'm a Jordan guy, but he had great teammattes. Nobody wins titles
let alone 6 without great teammattes. Not Lebron or Jordan.

All these useless stats u guys bring up too.

A. Different era's effect the stats.

B. Lebron is a playmaker. Patrick Ewing said himself he would pick MJ as the better player, but would rather play with Lebron cause he wants the ball too. Lebron made his teammattes better than Jordan did for his. Not because he's better, but because he's a playmaker. Meanwhile much of Chicago offense was give Jordan the ball and get out of the way.
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Old 05-10-2021, 12:55 PM   #15791
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

In today's game Jordan would be KD
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:19 PM   #15792
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by nucleardonkey View Post
In today's game Jordan would be KD
If KD was an all-NBA defender, didnt miss half his games due to injury, had a better handle and didnt turn the ball over 4 times a game, and wasnt a baby back *****, then yeah mj would be similar to kd.
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Old 05-10-2021, 03:44 PM   #15793
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Jordan was middling with his left hand. Zeke always said just make him go left.

He'd not be all NBA defensive now.
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:03 PM   #15794
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post
you banana's don't even understand that Pippen was 3rd in

MVP voting the year Jordan was AFK. You really don't understand

basketball.



Then you critisize Rodman. Again you have no idea the athlete freak

this guy was.



I'm a Jordan guy, but he had great teammattes. Nobody wins titles

let alone 6 without great teammattes. Not Lebron or Jordan.



All these useless stats u guys bring up too.



A. Different era's effect the stats.



B. Lebron is a playmaker. Patrick Ewing said himself he would pick MJ as the better player, but would rather play with Lebron cause he wants the ball too. Lebron made his teammattes better than Jordan did for his. Not because he's better, but because he's a playmaker. Meanwhile much of Chicago offense was give Jordan the ball and get out of the way.
MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Old 05-10-2021, 11:13 PM   #15795
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

I don't think people realize what they're up against, say what you want about twog/his 30 other ghosts over the years/3 ball but he is ****ing willing to die for this ****, are you?

Props to him for that, I don't even care about my own health as much as he cares about MJ being better than Bron
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Old 05-11-2021, 04:01 AM   #15796
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post

Patrick Ewing said himself he would rather play with Lebron because he's a playmaker.


Patrick simply doesn't understand the statistic "time of possession", which the NBA tracks on their site NBA.com:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/to..._OF_POSS&dir=1
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/to..._OF_POSS&dir=1


This stat shows that Lebron holds the ball a point guard amount each game, which gives centers and other frontcourt players less time with the ball then they get alongside a traditional forward that doesn't dominate the ball..

Ultimately, Lebron's 2-point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than 1-point guard lineups, thereby giving the TEAM low assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

TLDR: Ewing is conflating shot attempts with ball-domination - he doesn't realize that he would have the ball more alongside an off-guard and jumpshooter like Jordan, while still getting to isolate/create plays.. Otoh, he'd have the ball less alongside a ball-dominator like Lebron, while getting reduced to a spot-up role..



Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post

Patrick Ewing said himself he would rather play with Lebron because he's a playmaker.


Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance reduces certain players types, while Jordan's ability to produce at an elite level on-ball and off-ball fit with all player types and allowed everyone to play close to capacity.

If you can't understand that, then you don't understand basketball.

People often forget that even though Jordan produced at an elite level as a ball-dominator, he actually played off-guard like Reggie Miller, where high shot volume came with the lowest hold-time... Jordan obviously dominated the ball more than Miller, but he still had low hold time characteristic of a fundamentally-sound, off-guard... People didn't realize this until he started winning.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post

Patrick Ewing said himself .


Ewing has tapped into the heart of why Jordan is 6/6 and vastly superior to Lebron:

Jordan demonstrated elite production rates on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with all player types or strategies/systems, thus yielding goat team ceilings (6/6).. Otoh, Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance doesn't fit with certain player types or ball movement systems, thus yielding lower team ceilings (4/11).

Ultimately, Lebron's inability to play the jumpshooter role and the resulting dribble-heavy, rim attacks impose spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. Talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so Lebron has a lottery record against the Spurs, Mavs and Warriors.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post

Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting


blake griffin and paul george were 3rd in MVP.. IT was 5th the year before joining Lebron.

ultimately, pippen's peak of 22/5 stats with 2nd Round loss is a top 300 peak

Heck, Marc Gasol was DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. KJ won 55 games and made the WCF twice.. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions - so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterlearner View Post

Nobody wins 6 titles without great players as teammates


6 rings makes anyone look like they're a "good" player.. But Kerr was cut by the Magic before latching on the Jordan and the Bulls.. Jordan's triangle gave him a career.

And no one would know who Horry was if he didn't play with Hakeem, Duncan, and Shaq.. I don't care how many big shots he made.

Ultimately, a team's offensive strategy is based on the skills of the #1 option - teams run Lebron-ball because Lebron must dominate the ball, while the Bulls ran the triangle because MJ's skillset allowed it and he didn't refuse it..

Certainly, the team doesn't base it's offense around the 2nd options or role players like Horry... so rings don't count when evaluating 2nd options, otherwise Klay would get ranked over Beal due to rings

And that's why Pippen is rated incorrectly - he shouldn't get rated over Ewing due to rings just like McHale isn't.. he's the only 2nd option that gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option, and the rings also inflate his media awards..

Ultimately, the production rate stats have him about 150th, but the winning spotlight inflates him to top 50
.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-11-2021 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 05-11-2021, 04:39 AM   #15797
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

.
89% of Lebron's jumpers were uncontested in 2020, compared to 69% for Kawhi, 61% for Harden, and 50% for KDGoat (2019 stats).
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:12 AM   #15798
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

.


THE GOAT HOP-STEP OR JUMP STOP


















Last edited by 3balI; 05-11-2021 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:26 AM   #15799
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

.


THE GOAT TALENT EVALUATOR (JERRY WEST) CALLS JORDAN THE BEST JUMPSHOOTER IN THE GAME

Jerry West:

"I've seen some incredible players," West says. "I mean, the Lakers had some incredible players--Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson--and it's awful to say, but Michael Jordan is the best player I've ever seen.

"People get enamored with his spectacular physical presence, but his skill level . . . if his skill level wasn't that good, he'd be another guy who you'd see on the highlight films a lot, but he wouldn't have been thought of as maybe the greatest player that ever played the game. Right now, I don't know who's a better jump-shooter
"


https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...107-story.html
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:27 AM   #15800
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

it's important to cite accurate sources and link sources
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