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View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron 176 31.88%
MJ (Michael or Maple) 285 51.63%
Therapist 8 1.45%
George Mikan 4 0.72%
Shaq Attaq 19 3.44%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo) 12 2.17%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan 20 3.62%
"Roger Murdock" 3 0.54%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?) 9 1.63%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh) 16 2.90%
Voters: 552. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-04-2021, 03:32 PM   #15701
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by 3balI View Post
but once Jordan took over in 93', no one mentioned Kareem as goat, not even his most prominent teammate.

Kareem wasn't mentioned as goat again until the people started pushing Lebron for goat

This is the historical record
I assume you think there's recency bias today for LeBron, but don't think there was recency bias for Jordan in the 90s?
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:03 PM   #15702
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Did you really leave Kareem off this list?
Thats crazy. Kareem is top 5 all time period.
He's in the goat conversation all day long.

I'm surprised this vote is as close as it is.
Makes me think 2 things.
1. we live in the present, and tend to forget.
2. I'm alittle surprised in a poker forum, a game that deals alot
with psychology, people don't understand how mentally strong MJ was.

This is not to say that Lebron isn't mentally tough. But MJ was an
absolute beast, one of the most mentally tough athletes ever.
Lebron could never match MJ's mental toughness. You add that to the
fact MJ shoots and scores the ball better, not to mention has defensive
player of the year awards multiple to Lebron's zero.

Anyone that really knows basketball too, at the very least has to have
a tough decision deciding between Lebron and KD. In today's game, where you can barely touch someone, KD is better than Lebron. The only advantage Lebron has over KD is power, but it will be limited how much he can use that power to his advantage. KD is better pretty much in every other way. Shoots way better, free throws, defense (close but he is taller).

Its actually possible that KD is the goat. I believe theres many current players former players, that would say KD right now is better than Lebron
ever was. And I agree, hes a freak show. The most unguardable player
i've ever watched play. More so than Lebron or MJ.
Maybe Kareem would be up there too, but never saw him play.
you guys act like Love and Irving were amazing players. they werent. they were and are nothing without Lebron. doubt they make the HOF. certainly Love wont. has Irving ever been top 10 in the league?

and you are massively overstating Lebron "complaining". Kobe complained. Lebron made a few weak statements to the media.

but really, who cares what they say? its what happens on the court that we are talking about. and what LEbron did on the court is better than anything Jordan did.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:03 PM   #15703
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post
I assume you think there's recency bias today for LeBron, but don't think there was recency bias for Jordan in the 90s?

There's no need for Magic or anyone to be biased because they were witnessing something that no one had done before or since - 6 rings in 3-pointer basketball as the best player

Otoh, Lebron's Finals appearances are inferior achievements that others have duplicated, even without considering how they were achieved (hand-picked Year 1 league favorites, aka easiest path possible).
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:10 PM   #15704
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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^^^^ That article is one of many incorrect interpretations of the Illegal Defense Rules (and this ambiguity is why it was a free-for-all and nothing was enforced).

Otoh, today's defensive 3 seconds rule keeps the paint clear, which means that defenders flooding the strongside can't stop and wait in the paint - if the defender decides to stop in the paint and play halfway, the ball-handler can time his drive for when the defender must run back to their man (AWAY from the penetration).. Accordingly, today's rules mandate that paint-camping defenders run AWAY from timely penetrators.

If the defender comes all the way over on a strongside flood, the ball-handler can wait them out (wait for them to run back), or get an easy assist to a weakside that's a man down defensively... Either way, the strongside flood has become a stat-padder for ball-handlers - it was initially lauded as something significant, but now it's routinely shredded and there's a zillion perimeter guys getting 25 ppg (many of them bums).






In addition to the wing penetration described above, defensive 3 seconds ensures that all penetrators from the top of the key (which is most penetration) see an OPEN PAINT behind their initial defender, while previous era penetrators saw crowded bodies in the paint when penetrating from the top of the key.

Ultimately, defensive 3 seconds keeps the paint clear, and here's a specific example below that shows how lax the previous era rules were by comparison:









Unlike the gif above, today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires paint defenders to stand right next to their man (within "armslength") - so they couldn't stand under the rim while their man was outside the paint like the illegal defense rules allowed (shown in the gif above) - they would need to stand right next to their man at the edge of the paint (not under the rim like the gif above).. Keep in mind that the paint is 16 feet wide and a man's arm is about 3 feet.

Otoh, the illegal defense rules stipulate that "the defensive player may be within the 'inside lane' area with no time limitations" when their man was standing next to the paint (within 3 feet on either side - a hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3 feet).. That's legal paint camping.. Furthermore, previous eras had an "outside lane" on each side of the paint where weakside defenders could stand INDEFINITELY while the ball was on the strongside - this is specified in the illegal defense rules (Rule 2a.. shown in previous post).






Use your eyes

look at the isolations that Lebron got against the Warriors shown earlier - they were completely secluded and help defenders were furthest away defending shooters and abiding by defensive 3

otoh, the isolations shown of dr. j and andrew toney were complete garbage - unspaced and legal paint-camping..

floods are needed if there's no spacing and legal paint-camping.
.
lol at that gif. imagine giving Lebron that much space. imagine no help defense against Lebron. not to mention the lack of reaction and the lack of rim protection.

may just post that gif any time someone tries to say the Jordan era was at all comparable to the modern era in terms of athleticism, strength, defense.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:12 PM   #15705
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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There's no need for Magic or anyone to be biased because they were witnessing something that no one had done before or since - 6 rings in 3-pointer basketball as the best player

Otoh, Lebron's Finals appearances are inferior achievements that others have duplicated, even without considering how they were achieved (hand-picked Year 1 league favorites, aka easiest path possible).
def Lebrons fault Wade's knee fell apart and Irving and Love got in the finals.

I love that you guys blame him for leaving Boobie Gibson and Mo Williams to play with actual talent.

but your arguments are so weak that you are no relying on public polls. gjge.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:19 PM   #15706
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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I'm pretty sure KD crushes all in today's format.



jordan had the goat drop-step... BY FAR:

































^^^^ This power is why Jordan was far superior to KD - "Jordan's strength was like a big man's" according to Magic Johnson, which gave him an advantage over KD on both ends.. Jordan was a guard that played like a center with "the best post game in basketball":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYsbx66LZbA&t=0m43s


And unlike Lebron, Jordan had goat jumpshooting skill, so he could pop off in any fashion and overwhelm KD, while Lebron's plodding, dribble-heavy attack couldn't keep up.

.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-04-2021 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:57 PM   #15707
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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def Lebrons fault Wade's knee fell apart and Irving and Love got in the finals.


2014 ECF

Lebron... 22/6/6 on 56%
Wade..... 20/5/5 on 55%


So Wade was playing great but the Spurs had simply figured out the Heat and exploited the bad fit between Wade/Lebron, as SB Nation documented in their legendary article - the Spurs' defenders were leaving Wade or Lebron open when the other drove, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness).

The reality is that 14' Wade had higher PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring in the playoffs than 93' Pippen.. Infact, the only reason people think Wade was bad in 13' and 14' is because he'd fallen to Pippen stats... The previous year (2012), Wade was top 5 in everything, including higher PER, BPM, and WS/48 than any version of Pippen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

def Lebrons fault Wade's knee fell apart and Irving and Love got in the finals.


Since teammates break down on the 3rd leg of the 3-peat, Jordan's highest volume was the 93' and 98' Playoffs, where Pippen fell apart and Jordan carried the team.

So Lebron had the blueprint to 3-peat - high volume and possibly 40 ppg - yet he took 17 shots per game and was blown away.. 40 ppg would've beaten the Spurs



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Originally Posted by Victor View Post

I love that you guys blame him for leaving Boobie Gibson


Teams didn't need talent to win that conference - 1-star teams routinely won that conference, yet he somehow couldn't win as a massive favorite, so he left.

Then Dirk won with the organic 1-star team that Lebron thought was impossible, which proved the point that Lebron shouldn't have left Cleveland.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

Boobie Gibson


in the closeout game of the 2007 ECF, Boobie Gibson carried the Cavs to the Finals with 31 points, while Lebron wet the bed with 3-11 and 20 points.. Jordan never had any teammate carry him, let alone to the Finals.

Furthermore, the Cavs acquired a 22/5/5 all-defender (peak Pippen stats), but Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination destroyed him and couldn't elevate him like Arenas did (Arenas was an elite shooter and could play off-ball).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

and Mo Williams


The 09' Cavs had the #3 defense (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls) and better offensive players than 90' Pippen


09' Mo Will........ 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen....'.... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense

Last edited by 3balI; 05-04-2021 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:25 PM   #15708
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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you guys act like Love and Irving were amazing players. they werent. they were and are nothing without Lebron. doubt they make the HOF. certainly Love wont. has Irving ever been top 10 in the league?
We saw what happened the years after for the cavs and lebron when irving wasnt there anymore in the finals did we not ?
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:36 PM   #15709
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

I will add too that those of you saying Kyrie Irving wasn't very good
ARE YOU CRAZY ~!!!!

This guy is one of the biggest harlem globetrotters i've ever seen.
Some argue is the most skilled player to ever player. I'm not saying
he's even top 10 is close, his size is a weakness. But to say he's
not good is absurd. He hit game winner shots in the finals !!!!!

I think Kyrie is right up there in terms of skilled little guys. Maybe
S Curry and D lillard are better, but Kyrie is box office period.

Honestly you may not know basketball if you don't understand the skills he has.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:47 PM   #15710
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Funny that size for kareem is a liability but an asset for LeBron when compare to mj ...

Fwiw, with basically one move kareem scored the most point in nba history and have the best longevity as well because of that move .
If he needed other skills , he would just of been even better .

Lebron lucky not have to face someone like KAJ or Hakeem .
Shaq knows ...

Make a lineup of 5 kareem's or 5 Shaqs and you'll lose. Make a team of 5 Jordans or 5 Lebron's and you have a GOAT team.

That's why I don't think Shaq/Kareem types can ever really be argued as GOAT.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:08 PM   #15711
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

4 Jordans + 1 Kareem easily beats 5 Jordans though.

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Old 05-04-2021, 09:35 PM   #15712
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Exactly. Kareem is actually an inflated role player. You could've said the same thing about 4 Jordans with Clint Capella.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:29 PM   #15713
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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you guys act like Love and Irving were amazing players. they werent. they were and are nothing without Lebron. doubt they make the HOF. certainly Love wont. has Irving ever been top 10 in the league?

and you are massively overstating Lebron "complaining". Kobe complained. Lebron made a few weak statements to the media.

but really, who cares what they say? its what happens on the court that we are talking about. and what LEbron did on the court is better than anything Jordan did.
The season before joining up with Lebron, Kevin Love ranked 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 8th in the league in BPM, PER, WS/48 and RPM respectively. He was at absolute worst a top 10 player ITL and probably top 5 in hindsight. Obv his stats dropped off next to Lebron like pretty much every other star player in history's have (and that's not even a knock, its just common sense, Lebron does so much there's less for his teammates to do, so they seem worse given we judge players on their production). You're always going to think Lebron has awful teammates if you just look at their production next to Lebron.
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Old 05-04-2021, 11:21 PM   #15714
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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The season before joining up with Lebron, Kevin Love ranked 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 8th in the league in BPM, PER, WS/48 and RPM respectively. He was at absolute worst a top 10 player ITL and probably top 5 in hindsight. Obv his stats dropped off next to Lebron like pretty much every other star player in history's have (and that's not even a knock, its just common sense, Lebron does so much there's less for his teammates to do, so they seem worse given we judge players on their production). You're always going to think Lebron has awful teammates if you just look at their production next to Lebron.

C’mon, he was never a top 5 player. One season samples of BPM/PER etc which would have Love ranked as better than LeBron, Curry, Harden etc don’t mean much if they aren’t reasonably consistent. You could argue he was top 8-10 that one particular season but you could say the same for lots of other guys too. Love’s best BPM other than that year was 5.2 and he never again had a BPM above 3.3. Sure, part of it was bulk stats decreasing due to now being the third offensive option rather than #1 - but Love as your #1 option doesn’t result in wins. He was overrated due to being the top option and putting up big bulk stats on a meh team. Nikola Vucevic is a reasonable comp - didn’t quite reach the levels of Love’s peak year relative to the league but finished with a 6.6 BPM, good for 10th in the NBA in 2018-19….virtually the same as Curry, better than Lillard, Towns, Durant, etc. Even this year, he’s 10th in BPM again…would any reasonable person say the Bulls added a top 10 NBA player by acquiring him? Of course not.

A lot of Love’s value came from being a big who could shoot reasonably well (not elite, but respectable) and as the NBA evolved, he kind of got left in the dust. He didn’t magically get worse when he arrived in Cleveland and he certainly wasn’t awful. He peaked as a low-end all-star level player for a few seasons before his most valuable skill set (once rare) became more common and obsoleted him. He sucked at defense which made him more of a liability that could be exploited too.

In reality, he was around a Rashard Lewis level player or something. He had one monster fluke season that he couldn’t repeat and when the NBA evolves it moves quickly. Guys go from being super valuable to role guys to useless in 5 years all the time.
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:10 AM   #15715
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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C’mon, he was never a top 5 player. One season samples of BPM/PER etc which would have Love ranked as better than LeBron, Curry, Harden etc don’t mean much if they aren’t reasonably consistent. You could argue he was top 8-10 that one particular season but you could say the same for lots of other guys too. Love’s best BPM other than that year was 5.2 and he never again had a BPM above 3.3. Sure, part of it was bulk stats decreasing due to now being the third offensive option rather than #1 - but Love as your #1 option doesn’t result in wins. He was overrated due to being the top option and putting up big bulk stats on a meh team. Nikola Vucevic is a reasonable comp - didn’t quite reach the levels of Love’s peak year relative to the league but finished with a 6.6 BPM, good for 10th in the NBA in 2018-19….virtually the same as Curry, better than Lillard, Towns, Durant, etc. Even this year, he’s 10th in BPM again…would any reasonable person say the Bulls added a top 10 NBA player by acquiring him? Of course not.

A lot of Love’s value came from being a big who could shoot reasonably well (not elite, but respectable) and as the NBA evolved, he kind of got left in the dust. He didn’t magically get worse when he arrived in Cleveland and he certainly wasn’t awful. He peaked as a low-end all-star level player for a few seasons before his most valuable skill set (once rare) became more common and obsoleted him. He sucked at defense which made him more of a liability that could be exploited too.

In reality, he was around a Rashard Lewis level player or something. He had one monster fluke season that he couldn’t repeat and when the NBA evolves it moves quickly. Guys go from being super valuable to role guys to useless in 5 years all the time.
Kevin Love's ranks in his 3rd, 4th and 6th seasons (he missed almost all of his 5th through injury):
BPM: 13th, 6th, 2nd
WS/48: 9th, 7th, 4th
PER: 4th, 5th, 3rd
RPM: 21st, 6th, 8th

I dunno man, looks a lot more like natural progression to me than some freak outlier. But no you're right, Vucevic is basically the same guy cos he came 10th in BPM one time.

Glad you agree with bolded.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:26 AM   #15716
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I will add too that those of you saying Kyrie Irving wasn't very good
ARE YOU CRAZY ~!!!!

This guy is one of the biggest harlem globetrotters i've ever seen.
Some argue is the most skilled player to ever player. I'm not saying
he's even top 10 is close, his size is a weakness. But to say he's
not good is absurd. He hit game winner shots in the finals !!!!!

I think Kyrie is right up there in terms of skilled little guys. Maybe
S Curry and D lillard are better, but Kyrie is box office period.

Honestly you may not know basketball if you don't understand the skills he has.
theres a difference between being a good solid player and hall of fame championship caliber player. Irving led teams are lottery teams. you would think the Jordan rangzzz are all that matter people would understand that.

Irving looks good. he has a ton of skills. hes had some big moments. but it doesnt translate to winning. well, it does if he plays alongside the GOAT.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:28 AM   #15717
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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The season before joining up with Lebron, Kevin Love ranked 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 8th in the league in BPM, PER, WS/48 and RPM respectively. He was at absolute worst a top 10 player ITL and probably top 5 in hindsight. Obv his stats dropped off next to Lebron like pretty much every other star player in history's have (and that's not even a knock, its just common sense, Lebron does so much there's less for his teammates to do, so they seem worse given we judge players on their production). You're always going to think Lebron has awful teammates if you just look at their production next to Lebron.
how many playoff wins did Love have? how many playoff games did he appear in?

before and after Lebron.

I like my top 10 players to at least make the playoffs.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:30 AM   #15718
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We saw what happened the years after for the cavs and lebron when irving wasnt there anymore in the finals did we not ?
might want to rethink this line of argument
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:40 AM   #15719
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might want to rethink this line of argument
Hey , I am not the one claiming 2016 warriors is the greatest team of all time ...
And Irving was there and he played a pretty big role in it .
Great players shines when it matter the most right ?
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:53 AM   #15720
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Lebron does so much there's less for his teammates to do


Lebron's scoring wasn't that high, yet Love's scoring and role still cratered alongside Lebron.

Otoh, 3rd options like Klay or Nets-Harden have high scoring alongside an elite jumpshooter like KD, so those teams achieved goat offenses and team ceilings.

People forget that only Lebron took elite 1st options from other teams and made them 2nd and 3rd option on his team.. It's unprecedented offensive help, yet Lebron had zero #1 offenses and underachieved - he hand-picked the pre-season favorites from 2011 to 2016, but Lebron-ball turned them into underdogs or losers every year except the Ray Allen miracle.

Btw, if everyone on a team was a worse scorer than Horace Grant, the team would lose every game, so Love's 40 wins in the West with no help makes him an elite 1st option given his top 5 stats (carry-job).



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Originally Posted by Banzai- View Post

You're always going to think Lebron has awful teammates if you just look at their production next to Lebron.


So Lebron doesn't elevate teammates and teammates can't play near capacity alongside him?

No wonder he has zero #1 offenses despite arguably the most offensive help ever.
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:00 AM   #15721
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

1. Kareem
2. Lebron
3. KD
4. Luka
5. Jordan

Jordan played when most players including MJ could dribble with only one hand.
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:03 AM   #15722
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Make a lineup of 5 kareem's or 5 Shaqs and you'll lose. Make a team of 5 Jordans or 5 Lebron's and you have a GOAT team.

That's why I don't think Shaq/Kareem types can ever really be argued as GOAT.

Lebron is useless without the ball

What's he going to do when one of the Lebron's is dribbling?... play the off-ball "shooter" role?... lmao.. yeah right

That would be the worst offense ever.. Lebron isn't capable of #1 offenses in 2 decades of playing despite obtaining elite 1st options from opponents to play 2nd/3rd option (unprecedented).

So five Lebrons would be a bunch of brick-laying, deferring players.. Lebron literally doesn't take contested jumpers, so can you imagine 5 Lebrons deferring to one another - it would be a mess of 2011 Finals deja vu, with each Lebron unable to find someone with balls to shoot.
.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-05-2021 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:06 AM   #15723
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by nucleardonkey View Post
1. Kareem
2. Lebron
3. KD
4. Luka
5. Jordan

Jordan played when most players including MJ could dribble with only one hand.

Jordan didn't face anyone that Bill Russell faced.

Otoh, Jordan and Lebron faced a lot of the same guys because they were only 6 years apart (98' and 04')

And ultimately, Jordan dominated and played better than Lebron against most of the best players that Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett).
.

Last edited by 3balI; 05-05-2021 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:51 AM   #15724
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Lebron is useless without the ball

What's he going to do when one of the Lebron's is dribbling?... play the off-ball "shooter" role?... lmao.. yeah right

That would be the worst offense ever.. Lebron isn't capable of #1 offenses in 2 decades of playing despite obtaining elite 1st options from opponents to play 2nd/3rd option (unprecedented).

So five Lebrons would be a bunch of brick-laying, deferring players.. Lebron literally doesn't take contested jumpers, so can you imagine 5 Lebrons deferring to one another - it would be a mess of 2011 Finals deja vu, with each Lebron unable to find someone with balls to shoot.
.
Yeah ok sure dude.
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:01 AM   #15725
Banzai-
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
how many playoff wins did Love have? how many playoff games did he appear in?

before and after Lebron.

I like my top 10 players to at least make the playoffs.
Wait, so you're judging him purely on his team's success, taking no regard for the help (or lack thereof) he had? I'm sure I've read arguments like that somewhere before...

EDIT: I just realised you could use that logic to also say AD is no good. Nice touch :P
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