LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163
View Poll Results: GOAT?
05-02-2021
, 09:03 AM
Quote:
There were zero help defenders on nearly half of Giannis' drives because of todays' spacing (3-point strategy):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtOOQ43yw4&t=05m42s
So you don't know what you're talking about
The lack of spacing had far-reaching effects - for example, previous eras didn't have a corner shooter on the weakside or weakside spacing - so defenders didn't have to BE on the weakside.. They could stay in the paint or on the strongside, which means the strongside flood wasn't needed (where the weakside defender floods the strongside) - 5 defender strongsides were standard.
Defensive 3 seconds banned zone in the paint by requiring players stand within armslength of their man while in the paint - this is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of requiring defenders to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their man.
Infact, the defensive 3 seconds rule allows ball-handlers to TIME THEIR DRIVE for when defenders must vacate the paint, so today's rules mandate that help defenders run away from the ball-handler (if the ball-handler times their drive correctly)..
Otoh, the lack of an "armslength" rule and lack of spacing (all 10 players stood in the paint or near it) made lane penetration much more difficult in previous eras, even without considering the hand-checking.
The bolded is where you and everyone gets this wrong.
Man-to-man defense has never required a player to be right next to their man.. No referee ever called a violation because a defender wasn't standing right next to their man.. The violation simply doesn't exist.
Man-to-man defense has always allowed defenders to sag off their man, and every game in the history of basketball shows this.. There's never been a basketball game where defenders stood right next to their man on any sort of ongoing basis.. A cursory glance at any game in any era shows this.
The actual rule of man-to-man defense and the rule that referees go by is that the defender must be clearly guarding someone.. It must be clear who they are guarding immediately upon looking at them.. So certainly, if a player is standing too far from their man, an illegal defense will get called - but otherwise, it wasn't called because the constant sagging that you see in any basketball game is legal, standard, good ol' fashioned man-to-man defense.
In middle school and probably sooner, defenders are taught to stand halfway in between their man and the ball while they are practicing a play in the halfcourt, and to constantly point to the ball and their man with both arms as the play proceeds... It was a drill that taught proper defensive positioning for a man-to-man defender, along with the peripheral vision needed to see the man and the ball without overtly looking at either - the point was to teach kids not to "hug their man", which was a common, benchable offense, and not to have tunnel vision on the ball or their man.
Heck, if you think that defenders in previous eras had to "hug their man", then you must be shocked when you watch 80's or 90's games and see everyone sagging off their man and not hugging their guy.
Ironically, the only time the NBA forced defenders to stand right next to their man is today's defensive 3 seconds rule, which bans zone in the paint by requiring players stand within "armslength" of their man while in the paint - this is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of requiring defenders to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their man.
Clearouts happened in prior eras, but it was a bluff - there was no threat of 3-point shooting on the weakside (teams didn't shoot threes), so offensive players wouldn't fully clear out to the 3-point line on the weakside - they would remain in the paint or barely outside the paint on the weakside, which would allow defenders to camp in the paint and await the strongside ball-handler - the illegal defense rules allowed defenders to camp in the paint if their man is standing just outside the paint:
And when offensive players actually DID clear out to the weakside 3-point line, defenders could sag off to the edge of the paint like today, or in the outer edge of the paint indefinitely - previous eras had an "outside lane" on each side of the paint where weakside defenders could stand INDEFINITELY while the ball was on the strongside - this is specified in the illegal defense rules:
TLDR: previous eras didn't shoot threes, so offensive players didn't fully clearout to the weakside 3-point line, and the rules allowed paint-camping for weakside defenders depending on the scenario.. So the clearouts in previous eras were complete trash (no spacing, legal paint camping) compared to today's optimatally-spaced clearouts (see gif comparison below).
previous eras didn't shoot threes, so offensive players didn't fully clearout to the weakside 3-point line, and the rules allowed paint-camping for weakside defenders depending on the scenario.. So the clearouts in previous eras were complete trash (no spacing, legal paint camping) compared to today's optimatally-spaced clearouts.
here's some garbage clearouts without spacing, no real 3-point threat for defenders to worry about, and legal paint camping:
Here's today's optimally-spaced clearouts with complete seclusion, legit 3-point threats, and help defenders far away (strongside flood needed):
NIGHT AND DAY
That's a shallow perception and false.. It turns out that spacing makes everything easier on offense, along with hands-off, no-impede defense and offensive strategy that starts 10 feet further out via high screen rolls.
Ultimately, players today are accustomed to wide spacing and late-contesting defenders, so their gather-steps and in-stride layups look pretty.
But the few times the defender is already waiting in the paint, the offensive player shows inferior contested shot-making ability compared to prior eras.. The lack of spacing in previous eras created an expectation of contested shots, which forced each player to develop their own individually-unique way of making contested shots.. That's why players back then all played differently - no one played like Kareem, McAdoo, Wilkes, Magic, Bird - they all had their own way of making shots.. Today's players aren't as individually unique because the spacing allows a robotic shot allocation (threes and layups)
The packed paints of prior eras required players to shoot over them with contested mid-range, so Lebron wouldn't be good in prior eras.
Lebron's career began only 5 years after 98' Jordan, so they played against a lot of the same guys, and Jordan simply played better and produced more against them.
98' Jordan dominated and won all the awards over all-stars like Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Kobe - many of the best players that Lebron ever faced..
So we aren't comparing Jordan to someone like Bill Russell - Jordan and Lebron played in comparable eras, but Jordan's was tougher (big man's era, no spacing, paint-camping, hand-checking, impeding, physicality), and he had superior performance (6 rings without super-teams or 1b's)
.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtOOQ43yw4&t=05m42s
So you don't know what you're talking about
The lack of spacing had far-reaching effects - for example, previous eras didn't have a corner shooter on the weakside or weakside spacing - so defenders didn't have to BE on the weakside.. They could stay in the paint or on the strongside, which means the strongside flood wasn't needed (where the weakside defender floods the strongside) - 5 defender strongsides were standard.
Defensive 3 seconds banned zone in the paint by requiring players stand within armslength of their man while in the paint - this is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of requiring defenders to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their man.
Infact, the defensive 3 seconds rule allows ball-handlers to TIME THEIR DRIVE for when defenders must vacate the paint, so today's rules mandate that help defenders run away from the ball-handler (if the ball-handler times their drive correctly)..
Otoh, the lack of an "armslength" rule and lack of spacing (all 10 players stood in the paint or near it) made lane penetration much more difficult in previous eras, even without considering the hand-checking.
The bolded is where you and everyone gets this wrong.
Man-to-man defense has never required a player to be right next to their man.. No referee ever called a violation because a defender wasn't standing right next to their man.. The violation simply doesn't exist.
Man-to-man defense has always allowed defenders to sag off their man, and every game in the history of basketball shows this.. There's never been a basketball game where defenders stood right next to their man on any sort of ongoing basis.. A cursory glance at any game in any era shows this.
The actual rule of man-to-man defense and the rule that referees go by is that the defender must be clearly guarding someone.. It must be clear who they are guarding immediately upon looking at them.. So certainly, if a player is standing too far from their man, an illegal defense will get called - but otherwise, it wasn't called because the constant sagging that you see in any basketball game is legal, standard, good ol' fashioned man-to-man defense.
In middle school and probably sooner, defenders are taught to stand halfway in between their man and the ball while they are practicing a play in the halfcourt, and to constantly point to the ball and their man with both arms as the play proceeds... It was a drill that taught proper defensive positioning for a man-to-man defender, along with the peripheral vision needed to see the man and the ball without overtly looking at either - the point was to teach kids not to "hug their man", which was a common, benchable offense, and not to have tunnel vision on the ball or their man.
Heck, if you think that defenders in previous eras had to "hug their man", then you must be shocked when you watch 80's or 90's games and see everyone sagging off their man and not hugging their guy.
Ironically, the only time the NBA forced defenders to stand right next to their man is today's defensive 3 seconds rule, which bans zone in the paint by requiring players stand within "armslength" of their man while in the paint - this is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of requiring defenders to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their man.
Clearouts happened in prior eras, but it was a bluff - there was no threat of 3-point shooting on the weakside (teams didn't shoot threes), so offensive players wouldn't fully clear out to the 3-point line on the weakside - they would remain in the paint or barely outside the paint on the weakside, which would allow defenders to camp in the paint and await the strongside ball-handler - the illegal defense rules allowed defenders to camp in the paint if their man is standing just outside the paint:
2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3 feet of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.
https://nbahoopsonline.com/History/L...les/Fouls.html
And when offensive players actually DID clear out to the weakside 3-point line, defenders could sag off to the edge of the paint like today, or in the outer edge of the paint indefinitely - previous eras had an "outside lane" on each side of the paint where weakside defenders could stand INDEFINITELY while the ball was on the strongside - this is specified in the illegal defense rules:
2a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds.
TLDR: previous eras didn't shoot threes, so offensive players didn't fully clearout to the weakside 3-point line, and the rules allowed paint-camping for weakside defenders depending on the scenario.. So the clearouts in previous eras were complete trash (no spacing, legal paint camping) compared to today's optimatally-spaced clearouts (see gif comparison below).
previous eras didn't shoot threes, so offensive players didn't fully clearout to the weakside 3-point line, and the rules allowed paint-camping for weakside defenders depending on the scenario.. So the clearouts in previous eras were complete trash (no spacing, legal paint camping) compared to today's optimatally-spaced clearouts.
here's some garbage clearouts without spacing, no real 3-point threat for defenders to worry about, and legal paint camping:
Here's today's optimally-spaced clearouts with complete seclusion, legit 3-point threats, and help defenders far away (strongside flood needed):
NIGHT AND DAY
That's a shallow perception and false.. It turns out that spacing makes everything easier on offense, along with hands-off, no-impede defense and offensive strategy that starts 10 feet further out via high screen rolls.
Ultimately, players today are accustomed to wide spacing and late-contesting defenders, so their gather-steps and in-stride layups look pretty.
But the few times the defender is already waiting in the paint, the offensive player shows inferior contested shot-making ability compared to prior eras.. The lack of spacing in previous eras created an expectation of contested shots, which forced each player to develop their own individually-unique way of making contested shots.. That's why players back then all played differently - no one played like Kareem, McAdoo, Wilkes, Magic, Bird - they all had their own way of making shots.. Today's players aren't as individually unique because the spacing allows a robotic shot allocation (threes and layups)
The packed paints of prior eras required players to shoot over them with contested mid-range, so Lebron wouldn't be good in prior eras.
Lebron's career began only 5 years after 98' Jordan, so they played against a lot of the same guys, and Jordan simply played better and produced more against them.
98' Jordan dominated and won all the awards over all-stars like Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Kobe - many of the best players that Lebron ever faced..
So we aren't comparing Jordan to someone like Bill Russell - Jordan and Lebron played in comparable eras, but Jordan's was tougher (big man's era, no spacing, paint-camping, hand-checking, impeding, physicality), and he had superior performance (6 rings without super-teams or 1b's)
.
http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/20...se-shapes-nba/
05-03-2021
, 04:48 PM
Quote:
I forgot the link in the first post. But this refutes everything you say .
http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/20...se-shapes-nba/
http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/20...se-shapes-nba/
^^^^ That article is one of many incorrect interpretations of the Illegal Defense Rules (and this ambiguity is why it was a free-for-all and nothing was enforced).
Otoh, today's defensive 3 seconds rule keeps the paint clear, which means that defenders flooding the strongside can't stop and wait in the paint - if the defender decides to stop in the paint and play halfway, the ball-handler can time his drive for when the defender must run back to their man (AWAY from the penetration).. Accordingly, today's rules mandate that paint-camping defenders run AWAY from timely penetrators.
If the defender comes all the way over on a strongside flood, the ball-handler can wait them out (wait for them to run back), or get an easy assist to a weakside that's a man down defensively... Either way, the strongside flood has become a stat-padder for ball-handlers - it was initially lauded as something significant, but now it's routinely shredded and there's a zillion perimeter guys getting 25 ppg (many of them bums).
In addition to the wing penetration described above, defensive 3 seconds ensures that all penetrators from the top of the key (which is most penetration) see an OPEN PAINT behind their initial defender, while previous era penetrators saw crowded bodies in the paint when penetrating from the top of the key.
Ultimately, defensive 3 seconds keeps the paint clear, and here's a specific example below that shows how lax the previous era rules were by comparison:
Unlike the gif above, today's defensive 3 seconds rule requires paint defenders to stand right next to their man (within "armslength") - so they couldn't stand under the rim while their man was outside the paint like the illegal defense rules allowed (shown in the gif above) - they would need to stand right next to their man at the edge of the paint (not under the rim like the gif above).. Keep in mind that the paint is 16 feet wide and a man's arm is about 3 feet.
Otoh, the illegal defense rules stipulate that "the defensive player may be within the 'inside lane' area with no time limitations" when their man was standing next to the paint (within 3 feet on either side - a hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3 feet).. That's legal paint camping.. Furthermore, previous eras had an "outside lane" on each side of the paint where weakside defenders could stand INDEFINITELY while the ball was on the strongside - this is specified in the illegal defense rules (Rule 2a.. shown in previous post).
Use your eyes
look at the isolations that Lebron got against the Warriors shown earlier - they were completely secluded and help defenders were furthest away defending shooters and abiding by defensive 3
otoh, the isolations shown of dr. j and andrew toney were complete garbage - unspaced and legal paint-camping..
floods are needed if there's no spacing and legal paint-camping.
.
Last edited by 3balI; 05-03-2021 at 04:55 PM.
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