I also heard that a lot of teams are looking for off-ball mid-range shooters (3-point shooting not required) to play off of ball-dominant guards. Apparently that's the role that teams are having a hard time filling, catch&shoot guys who thrive in the mid range.

You know the whole point of ball movement or whatever is to generate efficient shots - i.e. something other than contested mid-range jumpers.

According to NBA.com's stats for the 2020 regular season, only 11% of Lebron's shots outside of 10 feet were "contested" (2-4 feet from closest defender) or "very tightly contested" (0-2 feet), compared to 31% for Kawhi, 39% for Harden, and 50% for KDGoat (2019 stats)

So it's not even close - Lebron avoids contested jumpers compared to his peers.

He avoids tough shots because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill and lacks the assassin mentality to go for it (seek to get hot/dominate)..

Ultimately, his inability to shoot contested jumpers prevents him from shooting well at high volume (when more contested shooting is required)... So he needs elite 1st options to play 2nd and 3rd option to take tough shots
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What does this have anything to do with what I said ?
MJ had 2 goat team in his division for years , what does it matter where he lost ?
Even with just a prime pippen and nothing else it would of been is greatest challenge ever to win with just a prime pippen and he didn’t even had that ....
Not even an all star he had ...

So you can add w.e you want about LeBron James , I’m not talking about LeBron James anyway , MJ for at least 5 years had absolutely 0 chance to pass them .
Whether it’s 1st round , second , final it doesn’t change anything ....

Yup LeBron had garbage but he did had a garbage east conference to play in as well ...
Having celtic and pistons in the same conference consider garbage in the 80s ?
From 1984 to 1990 he had at the minimum one juggernaut team to face before ever reaching the nba final with not even 1 freakin all star ...
Blame MJ all you want but doesn’t change the fact MJ without a minimum of help of 1 all star, could ever beat a team with having 4/5 hall of farmers on them .

If you really want to blame MJ there and not blaming LeBron from all the loss he had in the finals , I just don’t even know why I should continue this discussion ....

There is such a huge disparity on how you see things than I , I just gave up .
But here is some ....

MJ a pretty well all around player but yet his got the most offensive and defensive award in the game right for a decade .
And you call him one dimensional player compare to LeBron ????
The disconnect here is incredibly massif.

Or

And can MJ have weaker anticipation being 3 times all nba champ steal ?
And MJ weak against bigs ?

MJ was all defensive first team for 9 years playing against players like Robinson , Ewing , Hakeem, Shaq , etc ....

I don’t even understand how you can say is bad....

And other stuff like that ,it’s obvious will never agree on anything since the gap is way too large anyway .

So you win ...

Ps:
Ho yeah one last thing !
You love stats but once a stats you don’t like ( example steals ) than you say , well it doesn’t count cause in that era they didn’t really understand defence ...
Im like w.e man ....

Jordan would never defend Ewing, Robinson, etc... do you understand how basketball works?

That said, if switched onto a center, who do you think would fare better, a 6'6" 210 lbs Jordan or 6'8" 260 lbs LeBron?

Weaker anticipation than Lebron? Of course. It's also fairly well-documented that MJ got a lot steals by gambling. Steph Curry led the league in steals twice - is he a great transition defender?

Amazing

Steals not being a particularly relevant stat is something that every reasonable basketball analyst knows. No one today looks at a player leading the league in steals and thinks, he must be a good defensive player. I know MJ-stans have no idea how to use stats to evaluate players and dishonestly inflate the importance of every stat that MJ seemed to be good at, while brushing aside the importance of anything Lebron seems to be good at, so they project and think the reverse must be going on, but that's simply not the case here. I'm not ignoring "steals" because it makes MJ look good, but because we know that this isn't a very important component. Harden (led the league last year), Westbrook and Curry are usually among the league leaders in steal and none of them is a particularly good defender.

Again, this is the problem with trying to argue about who's the GOAT in a sport that you don't follow and have no idea how to analyze - and this seems to describe every MJ-stan in the thread.

3ball makes some good points here. Let's update the scorecard.

Things MJ is better at:

Very tightly contested mid-range fade-aways
Very tightly contested mid-range pull-ups
Very tightly contested mid-range step-back
Very tightly contested mid-range catch&shoot
Tightly contested mid-range fadeaways
Tightly contested mid-range pull-up
Tightly contested mid-range step-back
Tightly contested mid-range catch&shoot
Slightly contested mid-range fadeaways
Slightly contested mid-range pull-up
Slightly contested mid-range step-back
Slightly contested mid-range catch&shoot
Open mid-range fadeaways
Open mid-range pull-up
Open mid-range step-back
Open mid-range catch&shoot
Wide open mid-range fadeaways
Wide open mid-range pull-up
Wide open mid-range step-back
Wide open mid-range catch&shoot
Free throws on shooting fouls
Free throws on non-shooting personal fouls
Free throws on technical fouls

Things Lebron is better at:

Inside scoring
3-point shooting
Handle
Passing
Rebounding
Defense
Leadership

Looks like MJ wins 23 to 7, MJ GOAT confirmed.

That settles the debate - the lack of ball movement in Lebron's offenses means players are forced to settle for open shots instead of making extra passes to create those hyper-efficient contested jumpers.

Well got my thunder stolen on the idea that when Jordan came into the league there were two GOAT-type teams in his conference. That he overcame that and won six titles, can hardly be cited that he didn't understand winning or the team concept. Quite the opposite. He was the driving force behind the team that unseated those GOAT teams, as they of course readily admit.

As far as not understanding what the "will to win" is, I don't think it is very realistic to think of all humans as equally competitive (any more than they are all equal in any other trait). MJ was obviously at the extreme end of this spectrum. I find the objection bizarre.

Also, there is a reason for the saying about "lies and statistics." Just saying.

Being better at basketball opens up more ways to win the game than LeBron scoring 35ppg every night.

Jordan and Kobe took many of those contested shots because they aren't as good as LeBron in creating higher points per possession opportunities

Sorry Jordan fans, LeBron is superior at playing basketball.

The best part is LeBron is still mostly more efficient than those guys despite being a worse shooter. In his last 5 regular seasons (keep in mind these are his age 32-36 years, whereas the other guys are in their prime) LeBron has a 57.5 eFG%. Durant, Kawhi, and Harden are 58.1%, 54.1%, and 53.9%. Maybe shot selection has something to do with that - tightly contested jumpers, even for the best players, will be well below these levels.

LeBron also somehow gets more efficient in the postseason, too. He has a higher career eFG% than Durant or Harden (2% less than Kawhi) but his efficiency has totally skyrocketed in recent years as he’s improved his 3 point shot as he’s put up a truly absurd 60.3 eFG% on a 31.5/9.7/8.6/1.5/1 line the last 3 postseasons. By contrast, here is the same for the above players:

Harden: 29.7/5.8/7/2/0.8 on 50.8 eFG%
Kawhi: 29.2/8.8/4.5/1.8/0.7 on 55.1 eFG%
Durant: 29.6/7.1/4.5/0.8/1.2 on 57.7 eFG%

Somehow, he’s crushed all these guys across the board, even in scoring, while still being an elite rebounder, facilitator, and defender. It’s truly incredible that he’s been superior/more efficient to Durant on the super-team Warriors despite being 5 years older. Durant had a 50.3 eFG% for his career in the playoffs prior to joining Golden State, for example.

These arguments against LeBron are truly an abomination. He’s a hyper-efficient scoring machine and he’s being criticized for not taking more 35-40% 17 footers with defenders draped all over him?

By the way, in case anyone was curious about MJ when he was LeBron’s age, MJ’s 2nd 3 peat playoff numbers during his age 32-34 seasons were:

31.4/6/4.1/1.6/1 on 47.7 eFG%

This is revisionist history. The Celtics last made the Finals in 87, last made the ECF in 88 and were irrelevant by the time of the Bulls' ascendance. They also never lost to MJ's Bulls in the playoffs. The Pistons also were just a +3.5 (by net rating) team by the time the Bulls beat them and won zero playoff series afterwards. They weren't unseated by the Bulls - MJ's Bulls went 1-5 against these teams in the playoffs. And no I don't think Isiah Thomas admits that MJ unseated them or anything like that - I think their point of view (the correct POV btw) is that MJ didn't win against them until they were done as a dynasty.

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-is...s-competition/

Zeke thought MJ wasn't even his competition back in his days.

Sure, but if you understand the game and understand the history, MJ was competitive in the sense of wanting to dominate others, not so much in terms of winning as a team. He was competitive when he was trying to statpad his way into triple doubles so that his critics would see him as a complete team player, he was competitive when he was trying to win money while gambling in Atlantic City during the playoffs and I'm sure he was competitie when he quit basketball and tried to create a name for himself as a baseball player or something. MJ, I'm sure, was competitive with his teammates during this Wizards days, to assert his dominance - that's probably why he took by far the most shots in 2002 while being the least efficient scorer among rotation players. Being competitive doesn't help in basketball if you're competing on the wrong things. MJ's actions demonstrate over the years that he values personal glory over winning - that was what he was competitive about and that doesn't help as much in terms of actual winning. Luckily, he had Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen to take care of the team side of things.

Players that are truly competitive about winning don't quit the game while in their prime, don't go gambling overnight in the middle of a playoff series and try harder to incorporate everyone else into the game rather than shooting like a madman regardless of whether the shots are falling and respond to reasoned criticism with a careful examination of their own game and tendencies, not stat-padding assists by telling people to shoot when they receive a pass.

According to NBA.com's stats from the 2020 regular season....

89% of Lebron's jumpers were uncontested, compared to 69% for Kawhi, 61% for Harden, and 50% for KDGoat (2019 stats).

^^^ these stats prove that Lebron avoids/defers contested jumpers compared to his peers.

Btw, ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than ball-dominance, which is why Lebron's has never had a #1 offense in 2 decades of playing.

Ultimately, Lebron's non elite jumpshooting skill and ball-dominance doesn't shift defense/wear down teams like the elite shooting and ball movement he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively (14' Finals).. Lebron-ball simply loses the attrition battle on the championship level.

In 2014 specifically, more offensive pressure from Lebron would've freed up teammates and made the Spurs' defense work harder, so they couldn't come back as fresh on offense.. the best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition

Even if you don't buy into the attrition battle theory articulated above, Jordan needed 40 ppg to three-peat, and this level would be enough to make up the Heat's margin of loss and win the series... Bottom line - if he was on Jordan's level, he would've 3-peated like Jordan did.
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Avoiding contested jump shots is a good thing. It’s more efficient and scores more points because those shots are made at a lower rate. That’s why LeBron averages more points on a higher eFG% than Harden, Kawhi, and Durant in the postseason. He’s a better player and more efficient scorer.

ITT, is the consensus opinion that Lebron is a top 2 player of all time? Reading some of these posts it seems like people don't even rank him top 10.

I know this argument is a little silly, but how about less of the using "autistic" as an insult?

Some people in the MJ crowd even call him "bad"!

I don't understand, I thought ball movement leads to more contested jumpers?

We went over this - Lebron's had multiple #1 offenses if you restrict offense to scoring efficiency. Meanwhile, MJ's offenses were rarely elite in terms of scoring efficiency - his teams were just way better at offensive rebounding. Keep in mind, mid-range jumpers are statistically the worst shots to take if you care about offensive rebounding.

He's not even top 100. Demar Derozan isn't a top 100 player and all the same arguments for MJ apply if you compare DMDR vs Lebron. DMDR has a far superior mid-range game (all 20 variations of it) and is better at free throws. Who cares about scoring efficiency, defense and that kind of stuff.

Derozan's stats are dwarfed by Drexler, let alone Jordan.

Of course, Drexler's peak stats in the playoffs exceed some years of Lebron's (07', 11')

None of Lebron's teams were ranked #1 in offensive efficiency

in 2 decades of playing

it's because his ball-dominance as a front court player is naturally redundant with shorter players, which results in a low ball movement, low assist team that struggles on the championship level, and mostly loses with exhorbitant talent

First of all.... being a basketball player that can't take contested jumpers is ridiculous and not worthy of respect from even recreational players.

Secondly..... a refusal to take contested jumpers explains why Lebron is often passive in clutch stretches and has many series where his clutch play caused series loss.. For example, the 2009 ECF saw him shoot 30% on jumpers in the fourth quarter and lose 3 fourth quarter leads, while choking in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series.. Otoh, there's many series where Jordan had equal or greater statistical burden, but his jumpshooting dominated the clutch stretches and won the series (89' first round.. 97' Finals.. many more).. Btw, Lebron is 0-8 on clutch shots in the Finals (game-tying or go-ahead attempts in the last 24 seconds).

Thirdly.... Lebron prefers to drive the basketball and this plodding approach doesn't yield sufficient team offense to effectively compete with championship shooting and ball movement, nor does it fit with certain player types (fellow ball-handlers with spotty shooting like Wade, Hughes, Ingram, IT).

To summarize, his sub-par jumpshooting skill results in a weaker dribble-drive brand that yields weaker clutch ability and poor fit with teammates, which ultimately results in lower team ceilings (4/10).

Heck, the Spurs exploited Lebron and Wade's inability to play the "shooter" role, whereas Jordan couldn't be exploited because he had no weaknesses - he was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with ball-handlers and shooters alike.. Ultimately, players with elite jumpshooting skill can fit with anyone, which is why Klay averaged 22 ppg as 3rd option and the Kyrie/Harden/KD average 25 each - otoh, Lebron destroyed 3rd options like Love/Bosh because he lacks elite jumpshooting skill to fit with anyone....

Again, we went over this:

That's 10 straight top-4 seasons for Lebron's teams and just 1 top-4 season for MJ in total. Lebron's teams were far better at scoring more efficiently than MJ's teams. Offensive efficiency includes offensive rebounding, however, and Lebron's teammates have historically not been good at offensive rebounding, while MJ's teammates crushed. It's actually MJ who rarely had elite offenses, from the perspective of scoring efficiency.

The knowledgeable posters in this thread put LeBron #1. I have him 1b but will over take Jordan easily by just playing out his contract and not even making any more playoffs.

3ball thinks LeBron is 13th all time.
Matt R says LeBron is a whiny turd and only top 5.

The LeBron haters can't put LeBron #2 all time even though all consensus knowledgeable NBA opinion put him #2.