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View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron 168 31.88%
MJ (Michael or Maple) 271 51.42%
Therapist 8 1.52%
George Mikan 4 0.76%
Shaq Attaq 19 3.61%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo) 12 2.28%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan 19 3.61%
"Roger Murdock" 3 0.57%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?) 9 1.71%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh) 14 2.66%
Voters: 527. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-24-2020, 12:55 PM   #13276
bacalaopeace
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by Matt R. View Post
Not massively overrated or anything. Just in my head he was a bit more dominant (not physically; just in how much he impacted games) than I think he actually was.
Shaq is the most disappointing player ever. He never fully developed his basketball and just coasted on his freakish raw talent. He could have been the goat and didn't really come close.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:28 PM   #13277
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Yea fair enough, I wasn't criticising I just find it strange. "Who was better" really just means peak to me. To me achievements are more of a consequence of how great they were, something you can infer how good they were from, rather than the actual driving of the opinion. But I'm probably in the minority here.
Peak and near peak duration matters a lot.

All NBA 1st teams and top 3 MVP voting matter enormously. How long was this player either the best player or top 3 player + peak.

LeBron gonna have 13 All NBA 1st teams after this year. Which is absolutely insane. Most likely will finish with 15 all nba 1st teams.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:37 PM   #13278
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Main reason that Duncan is such a GOAT.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:54 PM   #13279
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by Tien View Post
Peak and near peak duration matters a lot.

All NBA 1st teams and top 3 MVP voting matter enormously. How long was this player either the best player or top 3 player + peak.

LeBron gonna have 13 All NBA 1st teams after this year. Which is absolutely insane. Most likely will finish with 15 all nba 1st teams.
It is insane, and despite what I said I must admit I don't ignore it completely, it just doesn't move the needle much for me. Like equal second on that 1st team all-nba metric are Kobe and Karl Malone, and I wouldn't rate either of them anywhere near the very top echelon. For me it's far more about how good a peak was (so long as it's maintained for a reasonable amount of time, I'm not chucking Curry in the top 5 just cosa 2016 for example).

Although I do realise as I type this that I'm the complete opposite with Tennis, really rating longevity, in the GOAT argument, so I'm not entirely consistent on the topic haha
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:31 PM   #13280
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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It is insane, and despite what I said I must admit I don't ignore it completely, it just doesn't move the needle much for me. Like equal second on that 1st team all-nba metric are Kobe and Karl Malone, and I wouldn't rate either of them anywhere near the very top echelon. For me it's far more about how good a peak was (so long as it's maintained for a reasonable amount of time, I'm not chucking Curry in the top 5 just cosa 2016 for example).

Although I do realise as I type this that I'm the complete opposite with Tennis, really rating longevity, in the GOAT argument, so I'm not entirely consistent on the topic haha
Your for federer ?
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Old 05-24-2020, 09:42 PM   #13281
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Your for federer ?
Nadal actually. If Nadal wins just one more they'll both have 20 but Nadal's will have been over a longer (and tougher thanks to Djok) period of time, and then who knows how much longer he could still stay relevant. Longevity isn't just being good when you're old but being good when you're young. Which I guess I have to admit is an argument in favour of Lebron, to keep this somewhat relevant and not a complete sidetrack.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:00 PM   #13282
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Nadal actually. If Nadal wins just one more they'll both have 20 but Nadal's will have been over a longer (and tougher thanks to Djok) period of time, and then who knows how much longer he could still stay relevant. Longevity isn't just being good when you're old but being good when you're young. Which I guess I have to admit is an argument in favour of Lebron, to keep this somewhat relevant and not a complete sidetrack.
Well you said it yourself , federer has the most title and longevity .
Pretty hard to go against that imo .
But yeah the race is still open .
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Old Yesterday, 08:11 AM   #13283
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by Banzai- View Post
Nadal actually. If Nadal wins just one more they'll both have 20 but Nadal's will have been over a longer (and tougher thanks to Djok) period of time, and then who knows how much longer he could still stay relevant. Longevity isn't just being good when you're old but being good when you're young. Which I guess I have to admit is an argument in favour of Lebron, to keep this somewhat relevant and not a complete sidetrack.
2003-2018
2005-2020 (assuming he wins the FO this year).

Is the exact same time period.
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Old Yesterday, 07:18 PM   #13284
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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2003-2018
2005-2020 (assuming he wins the FO this year).

Is the exact same time period.
Look there's a correct thread for this so I don't really wanna get into it here, but WI '03 - AO '18 < RG '05 - RG '20
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Old Yesterday, 07:52 PM   #13285
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Nadal owned federer h2h
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Old Yesterday, 10:05 PM   #13286
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Nobody cares.

Spoiler:
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Old Today, 09:12 AM   #13287
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Peak and near peak duration matters a lot.

All NBA 1st teams and top 3 MVP voting matter enormously. How long was this player either the best player or top 3 player + peak.

LeBron gonna have 13 All NBA 1st teams after this year. Which is absolutely insane. Most likely will finish with 15 all nba 1st teams.
and he really should have 14 all-NBA, maybe even 15.

in 2006-7 he put up 24.5 PER, 552TS on 31 USG. sure, a little dip from the previous year and a bit off his peak. but the Cavs won 50 games tho. PER is an ok box score aggregate for high usage players but his numbers were 27-6-6.7.

the other year was his second in the league, 04-05 where the cavs missed the playoffs and he put up actually slightly higher numbers.

most underrated player of all time.
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Old Today, 09:13 AM   #13288
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

proly time to lock this up. Lebron has so owned this argument that people are talking about tennis in here.
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Old Today, 10:23 AM   #13289
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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and he really should have 14 all-NBA, maybe even 15.

in 2006-7 he put up 24.5 PER, 552TS on 31 USG. sure, a little dip from the previous year and a bit off his peak. but the Cavs won 50 games tho. PER is an ok box score aggregate for high usage players but his numbers were 27-6-6.7.

the other year was his second in the league, 04-05 where the cavs missed the playoffs and he put up actually slightly higher numbers.

most underrated player of all time.
Amare stoudemire over LeBron in NBA 1st team in 2007. Must have been a robbery.

Getting 15 All NBA 1st teams and surpassing Kareem in points will pretty much put him neck and neck with Jordan in my book. If Kevin Durant / Curry / Giannis / Harden can get 15 All NBA 1st teams they are easily in the top 5 GOAT players of all time. Those great players physically / talent wise aren't able to.

The only player I've ever seen that mentally looked bored during regular season games and still dominated the competition. Yes Bron is the most underrated player of all time.
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Old Today, 10:32 AM   #13290
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Bird has 9 All-NBA 1st teams.
Magic has 9 All-NBA 1st teams.
Shaq has 8 All-NBA 1st teams.

Imagine giving each of those players 15 All-NBA 1st teams. Meaning 6-7 more years of peak dominant play. Even without winning a championship, those players are moving up the all time great list. No doubt about it.

All-NBA 1st teams should matter a lot.
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Old Today, 11:04 AM   #13291
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Amare stoudemire over LeBron in NBA 1st team in 2007. Must have been a robbery.

Getting 15 All NBA 1st teams and surpassing Kareem in points will pretty much put him neck and neck with Jordan in my book. If Kevin Durant / Curry / Giannis / Harden can get 15 All NBA 1st teams they are easily in the top 5 GOAT players of all time. Those great players physically / talent wise aren't able to.

The only player I've ever seen that mentally looked bored during regular season games and still dominated the competition. Yes Bron is the most underrated player of all time.
one of the reasons I really liked Lebron so much during his first cavs run was bc he never mailed it in. every single game of the regular season he went all out and had at least one and usually like 3 legit amazing dunks. I am glad he got smarter and learned how to slow it down in the regular season and save himself. but man was he fun to watch back then.

and yes I think Durant is top 5.
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Old Today, 11:39 AM   #13292
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Yes Bron is the most underrated player of all time.
If this was actually true, a consensus top 3 player OAT is also the most underrated player OAT and he has Anthony Davis (a top 5 player in the league) as his teammate, the expectation should be for them to win at least 3 titles together.

But knowing Lebron fans they will try to hype up the Laker's one ring in four years and act like it was some kind of miracle that Lebron and AD managed to win one single title together instead of considering it as a disappointment. Which is how i know when Lebron fans say things like "most underrated player of all time" they don't actually believe what they are saying.
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Old Today, 01:03 PM   #13293
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Where do you put LeBron all time?
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Old Today, 01:19 PM   #13294
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by Hellmuth was right View Post
If this was actually true, a consensus top 3 player OAT is also the most underrated player OAT and he has Anthony Davis (a top 5 player in the league) as his teammate, the expectation should be for them to win at least 3 titles together.

But knowing Lebron fans they will try to hype up the Laker's one ring in four years and act like it was some kind of miracle that Lebron and AD managed to win one single title together instead of considering it as a disappointment. Which is how i know when Lebron fans say things like "most underrated player of all time" they don't actually believe what they are saying.
I dont think the best player of all time is expected to win rings at ages 35, 36, 37 but really the only thing stopping him this year is the Rona.
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