So, because I proved your dynasty thing wrong, you are now saying every champion.

Good work.

Anyway, I look at that list and it shows that there is no real correlation.

You have an argument if all those teams (outside LeBron's) were Top 3-5.

That's a correlation.

11th to 17th isn't. To put it in perspective last year the difference between 11th and 17th was 2%, or the equivalent to about 0.8 assists.

Do you think that LeBron would have 5+ Championships if each season his team averaged 0.8 assists more per game?

Anyway we are now talking about why MJ's selfishness cost him being an 8 time champion.

Yep. Pippen's scoring went up 4ppg, Grant averaged 2ppg more, Armstrong 2.5ppg more. All career highs for all 3 players and likely to have been more if not for the recruitment of two scorers in Kukoc/Kerr.

They're pretty good though. Offense hasn't generally been their problem.

Well except they didn't



Good point about Pippen. He was one team mate. Pity MJ's ball hogging wanting to score all the time prevented the other Bulls players from developing.

1990 they missed a championship by one game. Man, if only MJ had given up that scoring title so that his team could have developed more and they probably win it that year.

Curry 2016, Kobe (couple of seasons) and 5+ odd for Wilt just off the top of my head. None of them won when they were scoring lots.

MJ was awesome. But I wonder if his team could have won more without him being such a ball hog. History clearly shows that's how you win championships. MJ could have had 8 chips man!

lol how do you all keep doing it? You're arguing with a machine. Just give it up

lol lock it up.

Thread has run its course.

Can re-open it next Finals.

Their offense has frequently paled in comparison to their opponent during a given series, despite having equal talent (or better)

So their offense underachieves given the circumstance, environment, and given what their equally-talented opponent is doing.. examples: 2009, 2011, 2014.... those are years where an equally-talented opponent (or less) displayed a far superior offense to the cavs' 1 seeded teams


using every champion is a stronger argument than just the dynasties.. and you know it

the dynasties average higher assist rankings, as do ALL the champions as a whole - so i was right on all counts


if only it was that simple... let's review

i told you that lebron's teams had significantly lower assist rankings

you made several posts arguing they didn't, which included introducing the assist percentage stat... so i use your stat and it turns out they STILL had significantly lower rankings, and now you're forced to argue that it wasn't a big deal in the first place

what a joke, and i've gotten the upper hand in every argument.. mods, it's time to lock the thread


11th to 17th is a significant gap and your attempts to save face are obvious.. Accept it - Lebron's teams have significantly lower assist rankings than the average champion - now that we know for sure, here's the correct narrative:

Lebron's point-forward style turns teammates into lower-assist play-finishers, so his team is forced to win a harder and less likely way that includes below-average assist rankings compared to other champions - this helps explain his 3/14 championship frequency, which is less than other greats, despite having equal supporting talent (or more).

his point-forward style and inability to dominate another way is a knock on him compared to other all-time greats, who achieved better championship frequency by playing in a way that gave their team a better chance


what other bulls were prevented from developing?

horace grant?.. no... his stats also rose dramatically under jordan, just like pippen's.

bj armstrong and paxson's stats also increased under jordan.. and after those guys, there IS nobody else..


Pippen's scoring didn't increase 4 ppg - it increased 1 ppg from it's previous high/max capacity.. ditto Grant:

PIPPEN 1992:. 21.0.. 7.7.. 7.0.. 50.6%
PIPPEN 1994:. 22.0.. 8.7.. 5.6.. 49.1%

GRANT 1992:. 14/10 on 57.4%
GRANT 1994:. 15/11 on 52.1%

Pippen and grant's high's were essentially the same alongside Jordan as they were without him - so they played to full capacity alongside jordan.

Otoh - Wade, Bosh, and Love's highs alongside Lebron are nowhere near their highs without him, so they played far below full capacity alongside Lebron.


this argument was proven wrong because everyone reached their maximum, full capacity stats (their highs) alongside jordan, or close to it - see pippen and horace's stats above

otoh, players see their highs decline significantly alongside lebron, so his game prevents them from achieving their full capacity max stats
.

MJ only won 6 championships. Should have won 8 if not for his selfish scoring nature.

Stats clearly show that non-MJ championship teams. 64 of them. 1 had a scoring champ.

Imagine what MJ could have done if he had nurtured the players around him better and delegated more and had them more involved. Maybe scoring 25-28 ppg instead.

The Bulls basically won in spite of him scoring so much. They were so much better than the competition, even his selfishness that pulled them back to the field didn't stop them from winning. In those 6 seasons, if MJ hadn't been so selfish, they probably set records that would never be broken. 75 wins in a season instead of 72? Back to back 70+ win seasons. Never needing a 7th game? Sweep a Finals? Sweep multiple Finals? Maybe even a 15-0 playoff run!!!! We'll never know because of MJ's selfish ways.

Numbers back up my argument. Having a scoring champ is bad for business if you want to be a champion. I mean you are arguing 0.8 team assists per game is critical to a teams success. How can you not also agree that having a scoring champ is bad for team success?

Disappointing really. MJ could have really set himself apart in the GOAT conversation with 8 chips.

meltdown lol

rent free

can we change your undertitle to "0.8 assists= championship"?

Actually "banned" is probably better.

accept the facts - lebron turns teammates into lower-assist play-finishers, so the team has much lower assist rankings than the average champion, making it harder to win

this is statistical fact

so lebron is nowhere near jordan, just based on this weak, defeatable brand of basketball that he employs.. that's not even considering anything else

jordan just plays better basketball, so his teams were much better and he won much more

0.8 team assists per game is holding LeBron back from being an 8 time champ.

MJ scoring too much held him back from being an 8 time champ.

Both arguments are equally ******ed.

Actually I take that back. My argument, while ******ed, isn't wheelchair bound ******ed like your 0.8 assists.

teams normally don't win rings with scoring champs OR point-forwards

but jordan was good enough to break the mold, and he broke the mold better than lebron, considering he has twice the rings and fmvps

so i'm not sure what we're arguing about.. jordan broke molds better and is better than lebron, despite coming along 20 years before lebron

and btw, the reason jordan didn't need to score less (while lebron needs to reduce his time of possession), is because jordan's scoring didn't hinder teammates and resulted in goat team results, whereas lebron's ball-domination hinders teammates, loses series it's supposed to win, and achieved inferior team results to other greats who played a different way..

i.e. you can't say "well this guy did better than jordan, so jordan's style wasn't optimal" - but you can say that with lebron easily.. and you can also say that lebron's style reduced teammate stats, whereas jordan's didn't

hope that helps

At this point they thing that you hard on the most is just noise.

There are likely many factors that have separated MJ and Lebron when it has come to finals success:

1) His teams were likely not as good-
They is evidenced by less regular season wins and much lower SRS than any of the great MJ teams. With that being said, the Lebron lead teams seem to be more focused on the playoffs so they're typically better or even much better in the playoffs. This is a knock against Lebron. After likely overachieving with the first Cavs rosters I don't think any of his Heat/Cavs teams have overachieved during the regular season except maybe one of the Heat teams.

A few times there were serious injuries--Wade played hurt against Spurs; Kyrie/Love missed one of the finals. MJ didn't have many; I think Pippen was slowed in a final or two but his stats still showed he brought super elite D.

Cavs/Heat were formed super teams and didn't have as much time to mature as other teams that might have been formed more naturally--since every finals loss is a huge loss to most pro-MJ, this becomes a big deal when you thrust a team like theres into the finals. Jordan had obviously gone through the ringer against Celtics/Detroit in previous years and was more ready for the big stage. Lebron clearly was at his worst when it comes to finals appearances against the Mavs

I'll exclude 2007, but other than the Mavs, the finals competition for the Heat/Cavs has been pretty elite especially the Warriors. I think the Cavs could have won at least 1 more time against less elite competition. I'm not sure how you can call this a knock against Lebron, it's just bad luck and more bad luck that Durant joined the Warriors. Heat should have won 1 more as well (against the Mavs) but the 2nd Spurs final (3rd for Lebron), the Heat didn't have a shot because Wade was so awful. His orat/drat splits were 106/111; first is okay, second is awful for the 2014 playoffs and 89/120 in the finals; in comparison Lebron was 120/116 in the finals; Bosh 119/122; none were good; Wade was baddd. Conversely the series you like to claim Pippen played so awful in; his splits were 104/97; MJ's were 111/110 so there is no way Pippen played anywhere near as bad as 2014 finals Wade.

2) MJ had more mature teams and Pippen was in his prime; Wade was near the end of his prime to past his prime. Kyrie has been fine and near his prime but obviously nowhere near as good as Pippen as a whole; Kyrie is better offensively albeit with his own issues but Pippen is on another world defensively. Likewise, I think Phil was a great coach for the team while Lebron has had lesser coaches--although I guess if you consider Riley a coach then whatever but Lue/Blatt/Brown have been laughable especially when Pop has coached against Lebron 3 times in the finals.

3) Era--it's hard to compare eras; this is the full blown FA era and we've had a number of "super" teams in fact we've potentially had 2-3 at the same time (Spurs/Warriors/Cavs + Heat). I'm not sure you could say that in the 90s although the Bulls were pretty super. 80s had 2 or 3 super teams a year (Pistons/Lakers/Celtics) but for some reason the 90s were just the Bulls.

lol sick argument ya got there. just totally ignore the numbers and keep on truckin.

.
Assist Percentage for Lebron's last 3 Finals losses:

Spurs 2014:. 66.5%
Miami 2014:i 45.2%

GSW 2015:. 63.6%
Cavs 2015:. 48.5%

GSW 2017:. 68.1%
Cavs 2017:. 51.9%

I see a trend

I wonder if the champion Bulls ever got hammered in assist percentage like this.. i doubt it since their teamwork was always the best (so the opponent couldn't have BETTER teamwork, making a wipeout in assist percentage unlikely) and their assist rankings were nearly 40% higher than Lebron's teams.. So no - I highly doubt that MJ's teams were crushed in assist percentage like Lebron's teams routinely are.

Here's the bottom line - the eyetest tells us that Lebron's teams have inferior teamwork to the 11' Mavs, Spurs and Warriors.. and when we look for statistical support for what our eyes see, we find it easily - lebron's teams have significantly lower assist rankings than the average champion.

So my narrative is rock solid:

Lebron's point-forward style turns teammates into lower-assist play-finishers, so his team is forced to win a harder/less likely way that includes below-average assist rankings compared to other champions - this helps explain his 3/14 championship frequency, which is less than other greats, despite having equal supporting talent (or more).

his point-forward style and inability to dominate another way is a knock on him compared to other all-time greats, who achieved better championship frequency by playing in a way that gave their team a better chance
.

It's weird, it's as if your almost too lazy or know the answer for the wins as well.

2016-48% to 63% cavs vs warriors for assist %
2013-49% to 51%, cavs vs spurs
2012-50% to 43%, heat vs Okc
2011-loss-58%to 55%, heat vs dal
2007-loss-53% to 51%, cavs cs spurs



So in one they were heavily out assist % and won. Two they had a higher assist percentage and both won and lost and two was basically even and they won and lost heavily. So I yes I'm your heavy loss sample your point is true but in the other series the stat is quite inconclusive.

1998 - Bulls 56.4 Utah 67%
1997 - Bulls 60.8 Utah 65.4
1996 - Bulls 66 Sonics 54.3

1993 - Bulls 61.2 Suns 55.3
1992 - Bulls 66.8 Blazers 59
1991 - Bulls 65.3 Lakers 57.5

4 and 2 for the Bulls.

Your correlation thing sucks.

Yes, it's nice to have more assist, but it isn't that important to win (as shown by the Bulls).

I also like how it's LeBron's fault about the percentage.

MJ's ball domination ways prevented the Bulls from winning more championships and setting records in the 2 3 peats that would never be broken.

Bump for GM Lebron being >>> owner MJ.

there are rumors about Wade to the cavs, would seriously hurt Lebron GM's stock

especially the way LeBron ****s Wade's assist numbers...

lol

I see better defense at my local KFC.