Oh yeah, Lebron wouldn't have had the rape case and be on his phone at halftime during the NBA Finals.

Kobe just wanted it more than the girl, someone call the WIM police.

Mamba mentality. Fvcvk at least Kobe is real, so he is a much better person than Lebron according to some.

Wow bro, so you agree that the bulls had below-average talent for a championship team/super-team

And Isiah Thomas agrees with you, but felt that Jordan's presence ALONE made up for his inferior cast.. so quit whining:

Bob Costas: Magic, you were quoted earlier in the week as saying that even though the Bulls are one of the great teams of all time, you believe your Laker teams or the Bird's Celtics could beat these Bulls..

Magic: Well, because we had more weapons.. If you get me in foul trouble and Michael in foul trouble and take us both out, you would see what would happen - we would dominate them.

Costas: What about your Pistons Isiah - could the best of your Pistons teams beat these Bulls?

Isiah: "...when you're talking about this Bulls team, you're really only talking about Michael Jordan.. You can't say that our team would've beaten them, or Magic's team would've beaten them, because no one has found a way to stop this guy.. Now sure - if you take Michael away, Magic away, and Isiah away - sure, our teams are better, but the fact is he's still there (he ISN'T being taken away)."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m17s

the only way a team can play above the sum of their individual "on-paper" talent levels, is to have great teamwork

so you're actually agreeing with me, but don't realize it

the bulls played above their below-par championship talent - and this can only happen with great teamwork


since when is it "perfect team construction" to have a player carry the goat scoring load, lead his team in passing, and be the best defender ever at his position?

and i know you think that "mj had rebounders like horace, whereas lebron must grab boards for his team".. nah, tristan rebounds averages more than horace did, and mosgov more than longley or cartwright

the reality is that lebron would be more dominant if he averaged 5 more points in the playoffs on better efficiency like mike.. after all, his teams are always getting hammered on the SCOREBOARD


lebron's offenses underachieve:

he's never had an all-time ranked offense despite Big 3 talent - and in the future, LESS talented teams with point forwards (watch the sixers this year) will similarly underachieve offensively given their talent level.. Obviously, lack of teamwork is the only possible reason for an offense underacheiving their talent..

otoh, jordan had all-time ranked offenses with weaker offensive talent, because of goat teamwork


since jordan had top 5 all-time offenses with rodman's 4 ppg, he'd have the #1 offense ever with an offensive superstar at power forward like lebron had.. Heck, the 90's bulls' offense was already Warriors-like as far as stats and dominance, despite Rodman on offense instead of bosh/love.

if I'm right and the heat/cavs offenses were all-time great with Jordan, than they would NOT be underdogs against the Warriors - it would be 2 titans going at it, ala Celtics/Lakers of the 80's..

compare that to the huge mismatch that you guys claim it is with lebron - if there's a mismatch, it's due to an offense that underachieves it's talent, so it can't keep up against an all-time great offense like the Warriors and is perceived as "outmatched".
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you simply don't understand the argument

time of possession is a point guard stat - the top 25 players for time of possession are all the starting point guards of the NBA

except Lebron.. he's the only non-point guard in the top 25 for time of possession - so he adds a point guard's time of possession to the forward position, thus reducing teammates' time with the ball, playmaking and assists.. this is all statistical fact - and here's why it matters

Lower teammate and team assists prevents lebron's teams from having the kind of teamwork that is needed to win rings - it's that simple.. because there's invariably a team out there (spurs, warriors, 11' mavs) that DOES have tremendous teamwork - so it's necessary that lebron's teams have comparable to teamwork to compete.

hope that helps

You have made a fantastic case all the way through TWOG

Its a shame these Lebroni slappies cant just accept the ownage

I enjoy the multi-colored aspect of TWOG's posts.

I do not enjoy the content of his posts.

i like that when no argues with him he just quotes his own posts and repeats everything, I can't imagine why he keeps getting banned from every forum

ya except for the times that lebron has won rings.

Aside from the Mavs series, what series could or should Lebrons teams have won? Realistically, not you saying Lebron should up his scoring avg by 60%.

If LeBron shot worse and assisted less, his teammates would create for themselves and each other at a level they never did before or after in their careers. This is simple wisdom that twog has been dropping on us, just accept it

who said anything about lebron shooting worse?.. lebron's career TS in the playoffs is 57%, which is the same as Jordan's

however, shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency (ortg), where Jordan's is higher.. so Jordan was more efficient than Lebron overall (equal shooting efficiency and higher per possession efficiency).

and Jordan's higher efficiency occurred despite his higher shooting volume.. so I'm not asking Lebron to have worse efficiency as you said above - I'm asking Lebron to have better efficiency, while shooting MORE OFTEN - that's what Jordan did.. now you should get an idea of how much more dominant Jordan was (5 more ppg in the playoffs at better efficiency)


Not much less - Jordan only averaged 1 less assist in the playoffs, and with far lower time of possession, which is the issue at hand here with Lebron

Lebron plays point guard from the forward position, and therefore holds the ball much longer than other forwards - this gives teammates less time with the ball alongside the Lebron than they had on other teams where the forwards had a normal time of possession..


The bolded red above is a pretty clear misinterpretation of the teamwork issue being discussed - Lebron's teammates had HIGHER assists and assist % before joining Lebron, and therefore DID playmake more earlier in their careers - that's the entire point being made - they playmake less alongside Lebron than they did before joining him.

So if Lebron held the ball less like normal forwards, his teammates' time with the ball and assists increase back to where they were before joining Lebron, and therefore the TEAM'S assists and offense would improve to another level..

Obviously, a fully-achieving offense using the Heat or Cavs' super-team talent would be an elite, all-time offense similar to the Spurs, 90's Bulls, or other dynasty offenses, and therefore NOT underdogs versus the Warriors.

And that's the point - since Jordan achieved all-time offenses with less offensive talent, the heat/cavs offenses would be goat with Jordan, and therefore NOT underdogs against the Warriors - it would be 2 titans going at it, ala Celtics/Lakers of the 80's..
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From 2009-2011, Lebron lost as the favorite and higher seed with homecourt:

He was expected to easily win the 2009 ECF, and he was a big favorite to win the 2010 ECSF against Boston too.. Here are the odds for 2010 ECSF:

https://www.thespread.com/nba-articl...ers-vs-celtics
https://www.docsports.com/2010/bosto...tions-793.html


Again, he was favored every season from 2009-2011.

And there's more - in the 2014 Finals, the odds were 50/50.. The Spurs certainly didn't have more talent than the 2-time defending champion Heat, especially considering the Heat's Big 4 (rayray) defeated the same Spurs team the year before.. Since the Spurs didn't win due to talent, their record margin of victory represented the gap in TEAMWORK between the 2 teams.

Again, there's invariably a team out there (spurs, warriors, 11' mavs) that has tremendous teamwork - so it's necessary that lebron's teams have comparable teamwork to compete.. Unfortunately, every teammate saw their assists decline alongside Lebron, so the TEAM ranks low in assists and teamwork, and needs super-team talent to win.

I don't think anyone is arguing LeBron is a better scorer than MJ.

I still find it funny that you think LeBron shouldn't have the ball is his hands a lot.

Would it be better if they just called him a point guard, moved the PG to the SG and the SG to the SF? Amazingly you'd be cool with it then.

please merge thread with kn0.....x thread in oot and ip ban anyone with more than 10 posts in either thread

lebron is 2 angels in the outfield miracle shots away from having 1 ship. 50/50 happens or it doesn't etc

If Lebron grabbed less rebounds his teammates would rebound more!

That isn't what i'm arguing, or even close to what i'm arguing

Heck, I'm not even arguing - I'm simply informing you of the stats - they show that Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position reduces his teammates' time with the ball and assists, which reduces the team's assists and teamwork..

this is statistical fact, but apparently you don't think Lebron should be knocked for preventing great teamwork, even though his teams need it against the best teams, and to be a great team/dynasty themselves.


I never said he shouldn't have the ball in his hands a lot, but he should have the skill to achieve dominating stats without needing a point guard's time of possession..

larry did.. and his teams had supreme teamwork as a result.. Otoh, Lebron needs a point guard's time of possession to statistically dominate, which prevents his team from having great teamwork.


It would be best if he played SF from the SF position, or simply started at PG, instead of playing PG from the SF position - the latter adds a 2nd point guard to the floor, which takes normal time of possession away from teammates.

look at houston this season - when they started Harden at PG this season, their ORtg increased from 108 last year to 115 this year (all-time level), and their assist ranking increased from 16th to 3rd.. indeed - previous to this season, harden had the same issue as lebron - him and lebron were the only guys that played point guard from another position and were the only non-pg's in the top 25 for time of possession.

so there's your case in point

ultimately, starting Harden at point guard allowed the rockets to only have 1 point guard, which gave teammates NORMAL time with the ball and therefore increased their playmaking time and assists to normal levels
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So when does Ortg matter and when does it not? You harp on CP3; CP3 has the highest Ortg all time.

cp3 starts at pg

he doesn't add a 2nd point guard to the floor by playing pg from ANOTHER position

that would reduce the time of possession available for other players, thus preventing teammates from having a NORMAL time of possession they could expect on other teams, and had previously GOTTEN on every other team they ever played for

Kyrie is gonna bathe in all that time of possession while he's under .500 on the knicks

Knicks would be lucky to have him.

And no, I'm not trolling.

English? Do you have any proof that your points actually matter?

Okay LeBron is point guard. Kyrie is SG. Smith is SF. Love is PF. TT is C.

There. Are you happy now?