Wade was so bad in the second spurs final. Any average wade play they could have had a shot at winning.

I have no issue with that MJ/Scottie is a better mix than Wade/LeBron.

I just hate how LeBron lovers say that MJ lovers make horrible arguments that LeBron should be punished for a terrible Finals record (which is a terrible argument, only 2011 is on LeBron)

But then in the next breathe say how horrible LeBron's teammates have been compared to MJ's (which is another terrible argument).

He's had very good teams, just not as good as MJ's. He didn't have great teams in his first stay with the cavs although they were good regular season teams. They weren't built for the playoffs. Not sure how they won 67 games one year or made the finals.

His 07 season was amazing and shouldn't be seen any other way (irrespective of the Finals result).

But for the last 7 years, he's been surrounded by equivalent talent to what MJ had. Pippen was undoubtedly the pick of the supporting casts (and a great second banana). But teams run deeper than 1 more player.

That Stockton pass is unreal. The MJ block after Stockton's steal was also awesome, one might say LeBronesque.

He was include in the "etc." Kukoc was good tho, but doubtful to be a top 50 player. 13ish ppg with Jordan.

I forgot JR Smith too. 12 ppg with Cavs.

LeBron credits Wade with teaching him how to be a champion -- but hey, who wants that in a 2nd banana, right? 20+/5/5 is a nice bonus too.

Bosh & Love are PERFECT role players / 3rd bananas for LeBron. There's a reason he keeps going to teams with stretch 4s. Love is one of the best in the league at that. Bosh was, too, back years ago.

wish LeBron had of been called for a foul

Wade was 3rd in PER the year before LeBron got there.

Obviously fell off a cliff, though, next year with 25/6/4.

I doubt there was 50 players in the league that where better than kukoc at the time.

After 6 years in the league for both I'm taking Kyrie over Pippen. At the same ages in the league for both I'm taking Kyrie as well. His career arc and team success profile is definitely one of a sure fire hall of famer at this point. I'm not sure how you aren't seeing that. Kyrie is still just 24 and he's ascending.

For some reason wade/bron didn't work as well in the playoffs. Bron had a slight slippage in the playoffs during the big 3 years, wade took a massive drop in the last 2 playoff runs with the bron. Wade by himself is definitely in the same breadth as Pippen all time or better, and wade could carry the heat at times but sometimes the big 3 just didn't work well. There have been similar issues with the Cavs big 3. the one thing I like about the cas current construction is having Thompson do all the dirty work. He's an excellent playoff player against elite squads. After the big 3, the rest of the heat werent that exceptional. I know they had old ass ray who was good at times but the heat really gutted the team while the Cavs are deeper. Mike miller, chalmers weren't bad but definitely not amazing.

It's not about who played with the most talent -- it's about who played with guys who complemented their games. Pippen was absolutely perfect for Jordan. Wade is a great player but he was already slowing down when Lebron went to Miami and he didn't complement Lebron very well. Lebron needs shooting that can spread the floor and clearly that is not Wade.

And, I think it's obvious KLove and Irving are good players who would be seen as losers if they didn't play with Lebron. Hell, Kevin Love was a huge net negative in the NBA finals last year besides one defensive possession.

Bill Simmons and Chuck Klosterman talked about who would win a game of 5 Lebrons vs 5 Jordans. I'd take the Lebrons but I found it funny when Bill and Chuck said the Jordans would be better defensively. Maybe I am a Lebron homer but when both are locked in I find it hard to believe that Jordan is a better defender than Lebron.

Keep in mind hand checking was allowed when Jordan played -- imagine what Lebron could have done defensively if he could hand check.

Lebron plays with 34-36 yo rodman: rodman was past his prime when lebron played with him, he was okay for a role player but couldn't score and wasn't as good as when he played on the pistons

MJ plays with 34-36 yo rodman: MJ played with HALL OF FAMER Dennis rodman!! Lebron teammates all sux so badly!!!

I think the common understanding is that switched on LeBron defense = MJ defense.

But overall he's below MJ defensively.

The fact that MJ doesn't need to be switched on to be a great defensive player (or that he is always switched on, depending on how you look at it), has to play into his favor in comparison. It's not really good enough to say "but when he tries he's better".

I do enjoy that hand checking get bought up a lot. Like MJ couldn't defend without it? Hand-checking was restricted greatly in 94-95, before being eliminated after he retired. MJ would have been fine. And LeBron would be better defensively if he could hand check.

Nice straw man. When did I say MJ couldn't defend without hand checking? The point is it should be considered when comparing them. MJ would still be great without it but Jordan would be worse with Lebron's rules and Lebron would be better with MJ's rules. The tiny gap that exists right now (MJ > Lebron defensively) would converge rather quickly if they played under different rules.

It's almost like:

LeBron drafted by the Cavs = terrible organization that doesn't want to win anything and can't put a team around him.

Jordan drafted by the Bulls (who never won anything before or after Jordan) = OMG he was SO LUCKY be drafted by a great organization and team!

Leonard with hand checking is pretty scary.

Prime Andre iguodala is a poor, poor man's Jordan as a defender.

Kawhi is the closest to pippen I've seen so far, but he's still behind.

Iguodala is viewed as an amazing on ball defender and a prime candidate to stop LeBron.

I think most people have Lebron's D > Jordan's, mostly because his versatility is more valuable. Jordan might be a better defender of 2's

History shows Cavs before LEbron left had no idea what they were doing and couldn't get FA to come. For some reason, they will come now. The boozer debacle is quintessential evidence they had no idea what they were doing and pressing buttons.

Bulls built a team mainly internally and it took a while but they binked grant, pippen and kukoc. Also picked up crazy rodman. They had the goat coach for managing stars.

Cavs lately have been doing everything right. They're spending money and keeping their players around and not overpaying guys who won't fit. They even got rid of their coach and replaced him with a guy who is doing a hell of a job so far. Cavs were built in the draft and trades. Probably not ideal as the bulls but it's definitely worked out. Gilbert had realized if he spends his team will be worth even more and keeps spending. They aren't picking up hughes, old as shaq or Ben Wallace and staying relatively young.

It becomes super hard when you start trying to insert individual rule changes as a factor in this spot. So much has changed on the defensive end.

MJ would benefit from incredibly improved current team defense that elite teams play now.

MJ would benefit from teams being able to play zone.

MJ would be great for switching 1 though 4 today.

LeBron would be great if he could hand check.

LeBron would be great if he didn't have to worry about so many shooters (as today's players need to be)

LeBron would be great if he knew he had a big man behind him to help him out if someone gets by him.

LeBron would be great if he knew he could smack someone in the head and not get ejected.

I don't know. I don't think it's that close between them defensively (not talking about when they are switched on, I mean over the duration), that one rule change all of a sudden makes LeBron better.

LeBron is certainly more versatile.

I would say though that most people think MJ is the better defender.

Most people also think MJ can never be surpassed as the GOAT. Most people are stupid.

Jordan should be thankful he didn't play during the twitter/first take era. He isn't the basketball God that people make him out to be.

I mean, bolded is beyond just being wrong. its completely absurd.

I'm an MJ GOAT man.

I also think LeBron can pass him.

I also agree that MJ benefited from not having all his games on the TV.

I've also talked up LeBron in GOAT discussions.

None of what you said, or I said, change that MJ was a better defender.

If you asked me the question - "In a 1 possession game with 15 seconds left, who do you want to defend the other teams star?" I'd have no issues taking LeBron.

If you asked me "Over a whole season, who do you take?". It's MJ easy.