Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron 140 30.91%
MJ (Michael or Maple) 232 51.21%
Therapist 7 1.55%
George Mikan 2 0.44%
Shaq Attaq 18 3.97%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo) 12 2.65%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan 18 3.97%
"Roger Murdock" 3 0.66%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?) 8 1.77%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh) 13 2.87%
Voters: 453. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-19-2017, 11:52 AM   #4701
tuq
TEEJ
 
tuq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Southern Hemisphere
Posts: 45,991
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mullen View Post
It's just sad that someone can't enjoy or appreciate something like the Pistons game because of an irrational extreme hatred for Lebron.
Jealousy is #NOTAGOODLOOK but there's no other explanation.

Oh noes he was a Yankees fan a few years ago and now he's rooting for the Indians in the World Series. What a doosh! Or how about the time in 2010 he did something insensitive to his fanbase for which he has since apologized. But jelly haters can't let those things go because they'd have nothing to cling to in their sea of sadness and they'd drown in their loser tears.
tuq is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 12:47 PM   #4702
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,590
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by darO View Post
Gerb iLL has convinced me


LeBron > Jordan
this lol. its obviously pretty close but when you read the arguments for jordan they are all so braindead illogical the the answer clearly becomes lebron.
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 12:53 PM   #4703
Iwreckshop
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: USA#1
Posts: 2,935
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerb iLL View Post
Yes, I do indeed consider championship round performance more important than first round record when discussing the best of all time. The **** else would I do?

I also forgot leBronze was part of a pathetic Olympic effort. Before the Stans come out and cry about him being young and only one year in the league, Jordan was the man on the college Olympic team and also hit a game winner for a NCAA title.

Before he played a minute in the NBA, Jordan was a college champion and Olympic champion. I guess a prelude of what his career and overall legacy would be.

LeBron had "King James" stitched on his drivers seat before he played a minute in the nba, also impressive. Then he missed the playoffs his first two years and got deep dicked the first time he went to the finals.
Do you have the ability to think critically? This is so bad on so many levels
Iwreckshop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 01:53 PM   #4704
rtd353
veteran
 
rtd353's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,857
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSoldier View Post
this lol. its obviously pretty close but when you read the arguments for jordan they are all so braindead illogical the the answer clearly becomes lebron.
As opposed to your flawless logic "an Internet poster made a poor argument against Lebron, therefore Lebron greater den jorden."
rtd353 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 02:17 PM   #4705
Kneel B4 Zod
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Kneel B4 Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 27,791
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Lebron is more physically gifted, and without adjusting for era, is way way way better. Adjusting for era, still better.

Lebron would be even better if he had the completely insane / maniacal mindset that Jordan had. I don't think Lebron has that and this is what bothers some people - that he's not a complete lunatic wrt winning that Jordan was. I don't ever recall Jordan having the weird disappearing / shook act like Lebron had in the finals vs the Mavs.

still, Lebron is the goat
Kneel B4 Zod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 03:26 PM   #4706
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,590
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtd353 View Post
As opposed to your flawless logic "an Internet poster made a poor argument against Lebron, therefore Lebron greater den jorden."
if there were better arguments for jordan I assume people would be making them.

kbz just did a pretty nice summation of the argument for lebron. he's obviously the superior athlete and it seems reasonably clear that adding him to a team (or subtracting him) has a bigger impact than adding subtracting/jordan to the same team. the only "knock" on lebron is the lack of jordanesque sociopathic desire to win as kbz mentioned, and that likely cost him the 1 ring vs the mavs.

some people can't seem to get past that one knock but when talking about the GOAT I'm more interested in who is the actual best player than who has the best resume. jordan's resume is a little better since rings are super highly valued but it seems clear enough to me that lebron is the better player. both players are currently close in both categories though (resume/skill). If Lebron wins this year he will at minimum equal jordan's resume (i would argue surpass due to this warriors team being the most stacked team ever assembled), and that combined with his winning the skill argument should put the GOAT argument to bed. But it probably won't since olds have some irrational jordan nostalgia, can't get over "the decision" or whatever it is.
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 03:28 PM   #4707
manbearpuig
grinder
 
manbearpuig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 611
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSoldier View Post
this lol. its obviously pretty close but when you read the arguments for jordan they are all so braindead illogical the the answer clearly becomes lebron.
What is the criteria? Regular season numbers? Post season success? Who would win 1 on 1? All star selections? MVPs? Finals MVPs? Most popular? All around skills? With the way the game changes between eras it's completely unproveable.

If you could start a franchise with 1 player you can make a great case for 1971 Kareem, 2003 Duncan or 2000 Shaq. If it's not about post season success and only about skills you could call Iverson the GOAT.
manbearpuig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 03:29 PM   #4708
mullen
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
mullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,490
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Iverson is not the GOAT by any metric. He's worse than MJ/LBJ at literally every aspect of basketball by a significant margin.
mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 03:41 PM   #4709
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,590
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by manbearpuig View Post
What is the criteria? Regular season numbers? Post season success? Who would win 1 on 1? All star selections? MVPs? Finals MVPs? Most popular? All around skills? With the way the game changes between eras it's completely unproveable.

If you could start a franchise with 1 player you can make a great case for 1971 Kareem, 2003 Duncan or 2000 Shaq. If it's not about post season success and only about skills you could call Iverson the GOAT.
I'ts a combination of all those criteria except popularity, with a heavy emphasis on skills/resume(playoff performance+rings) as I said in my other post. jordan supporters don't really seem to push the skill argument (because they know it's a losing one) and instead just try to make ridiculous arguments to detract from lebron's resume (or inflate jordan's).
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 04:06 PM   #4710
Kneel B4 Zod
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Kneel B4 Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 27,791
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSoldier View Post
But it probably won't since olds have some irrational jordan nostalgia, can't get over "the decision" or whatever it is.
Jordan being much better at PR / image (or at least living in a much better era for being good at that) is also a factor that influences people. "the decision" was a horrible mistake on all levels, whereas Jordan's 2 word "I'm back" sent the basketball world into giddyness. Jordan certainly has more universal love.
Kneel B4 Zod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 04:28 PM   #4711
fidstar-poker
I'm gonna need a hacksaw
 
fidstar-poker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spaining
Posts: 22,035
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mullen View Post
Iverson is not the GOAT by any metric. He's worse than MJ/LBJ at literally every aspect of basketball by a significant margin.
He might have had "pound for pound" over them. Might have been up there with the GOAT in that category. And I'm one of the people that think AI is one of the most overrated players in NBA history.

Last edited by fidstar-poker; 05-19-2017 at 04:30 PM. Reason: He's probably got them both for hair as well
fidstar-poker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 04:31 PM   #4712
Carnivore
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,599
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mullen View Post
Iverson is not the GOAT by any metric. He's worse than MJ/LBJ at literally every aspect of basketball by a significant margin.

In pure skill level he might have them beat, but being 7 inches shorter and 50-100 lbs lighter hurts too much. He was pretty much only worse at genetics.

5'11" and 160 lbs and he managed to take a team with no other offensive options to the NBA finals, and steal game 1 off a stacked lakers team.
Carnivore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 04:38 PM   #4713
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,590
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
Jordan being much better at PR / image (or at least living in a much better era for being good at that) is also a factor that influences people. "the decision" was a horrible mistake on all levels, whereas Jordan's 2 word "I'm back" sent the basketball world into giddyness. Jordan certainly has more universal love.
yeah for sure. but being good at PR should be ~a non factor when it comes to a GOAT discussion. and as others have mentioned, jordan might have a pretty different image if he came through this era of PR.
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 05:16 PM   #4714
mullen
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
mullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,490
MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Yeah, being a teammate-punching, womanizing degenerate who welches on gambling debts wouldn't really fly in today's NBA.

I mean it's common knowledge the guy would lose high stakes golf bets and stiff or slow pay
mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 05:17 PM   #4715
manbearpuig
grinder
 
manbearpuig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 611
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSoldier View Post
yeah for sure. but being good at PR should be ~a non factor when it comes to a GOAT discussion. and as others have mentioned, jordan might have a pretty different image if he came through this era of PR.
That's routinely brought into boxing discussions. Ali didn't have the greatest record, low KO % and did everything humanly possible(successfully)to avoid a rematch with Foreman, he's definitely not beating Lennox or the Klitsckos at his size. But many say he's the GOAT because he did so much to advance the sport. He made people who didn't care about boxing watch boxing, MJ did the same with getting people who didn't care about the NBA to watch the NBA.
manbearpuig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 05:21 PM   #4716
mullen
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
mullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,490
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post
He might have had "pound for pound" over them. Might have been up there with the GOAT in that category. And I'm one of the people that think AI is one of the most overrated players in NBA history.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
In pure skill level he might have them beat, but being 7 inches shorter and 50-100 lbs lighter hurts too much. He was pretty much only worse at genetics.



5'11" and 160 lbs and he managed to take a team with no other offensive options to the NBA finals, and steal game 1 off a stacked lakers team.


Sure you can argue what he did was more impressive physically but he's still objectively worse at everything in absolute terms. He's not even the GOAT 6' player though.
mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 05:24 PM   #4717
tuq
TEEJ
 
tuq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Southern Hemisphere
Posts: 45,991
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneel B4 Zod View Post
Lebron would be even better if he had the completely insane / maniacal mindset that Jordan had. I don't think Lebron has that and this is what bothers some people - that he's not a complete lunatic wrt winning that Jordan was. I don't ever recall Jordan having the weird disappearing / shook act like Lebron had in the finals vs the Mavs.
Ha, that's why I love MJ so much. Such a total ****ing maniac, insanely competitive at the expense of everything which wasn't winning. Makes me wonder how much less great he would have been if he had the mindset of a "normal" player.
tuq is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 06:29 PM   #4718
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,590
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by manbearpuig View Post
That's routinely brought into boxing discussions. Ali didn't have the greatest record, low KO % and did everything humanly possible(successfully)to avoid a rematch with Foreman, he's definitely not beating Lennox or the Klitsckos at his size. But many say he's the GOAT because he did so much to advance the sport. He made people who didn't care about boxing watch boxing, MJ did the same with getting people who didn't care about the NBA to watch the NBA.
MJ is probably the reason I started watching the NBA. LeBron is currently the only reason I keep watching. Don't think either is particularly relevant to the GOAT discussion tho. lol boxing i guess.
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 06:54 PM   #4719
Banzai-
old hand
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,502
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSoldier View Post
if there were better arguments for jordan I assume people would be making them.

kbz just did a pretty nice summation of the argument for lebron. he's obviously the superior athlete and it seems reasonably clear that adding him to a team (or subtracting him) has a bigger impact than adding subtracting/jordan to the same team. the only "knock" on lebron is the lack of jordanesque sociopathic desire to win as kbz mentioned, and that likely cost him the 1 ring vs the mavs.

some people can't seem to get past that one knock but when talking about the GOAT I'm more interested in who is the actual best player than who has the best resume. jordan's resume is a little better since rings are super highly valued but it seems clear enough to me that lebron is the better player. both players are currently close in both categories though (resume/skill). If Lebron wins this year he will at minimum equal jordan's resume (i would argue surpass due to this warriors team being the most stacked team ever assembled), and that combined with his winning the skill argument should put the GOAT argument to bed. But it probably won't since olds have some irrational jordan nostalgia, can't get over "the decision" or whatever it is.
Wait, what?

It gets almost glossed over in here a bit because of the god awful "6/6", "Never lost finals woo" stuff, but Jordan still won SIX times. 6/6, 6/15 who cares, he still took home the championship 6 times. And didn't come close to losing in any of those 6 (I don't mean that in a stupid 'he never lost' way, just that he won comfortably in all 6 of those years). LeBron is 2 very tiny bits of variance away from being on 1. I get that there is more to it than just that, opposition, situation, etc. But if you're talking strict resumes, it's not even close (yet).
Banzai- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 06:58 PM   #4720
72off
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
72off's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: WATZ POPPIIN!!
Posts: 51,277
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

ya but something something regular season winz in a watered-down garbage league where 90% of the teams are trying to tank
72off is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 07:03 PM   #4721
NLSoldier
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NLSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hello Ted
Posts: 23,590
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banzai- View Post
Wait, what?

It gets almost glossed over in here a bit because of the god awful "6/6", "Never lost finals woo" stuff, but Jordan still won SIX times. 6/6, 6/15 who cares, he still took home the championship 6 times. And didn't come close to losing in any of those 6 (I don't mean that in a stupid 'he never lost' way, just that he won comfortably in all 6 of those years). LeBron is 2 very tiny bits of variance away from being on 1. I get that there is more to it than just that, opposition, situation, etc. But if you're talking strict resumes, it's not even close (yet).
comes down to how much you value rings on a resume. and i said jordan's resume was currently better, we're talking about a hypothetical where lebron beats this warrior team this year and gets to 4. those 4, given the context/competition and other stuff he's done (like '07) would be at least equal to jordan's resume imo.
NLSoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 07:05 PM   #4722
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 37,545
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Yeah, by team metrics Jordan has a few more titles. Team resumes when judging players especially when the crux of your argument is team achievement is silly. I know at this point it's the "only" thing that separates the two so that's why it's argued so hard.

4 MVPs vs 5 (Jordan got his last at 34) but we all know both were basically the best player in the league during most of their tenures so actual awards are a joke.

13 All NBA vs 11 All NBA for Jordan
6 All D vs 9 all D--Jordan get's the edge here
13 All Star vs 14--I expect Lebron to pass Jordan in 2 years
2nd in Career PER vs 1st-I expect Jordan to maintain #1 status
3 Finals MVPs vs 6--If Bron wins this year, he'll have 4 which will be the same as MJ at 32 years old
I expect Lebron to pass Jordan is almost every counting stat and he'll do it pretty soon.
I expect Jordan's Bulls to have more titles than Lebron will likely have especially as #1 option. With that being said, I wouldn't be shocked to see Lebron win titles as a lesser option in his twilight if he wants.
capone0 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 07:08 PM   #4723
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,592
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Something interest me to know the asnwer here.

Lot of you here says the NBA is incredbly tougher than it was in the 80-90, with much better player and all.

But than when we speak about Lebron, everyone seem to think Lebron never had a great team and team mates.

So why no great player wanted to play with Lebron than ?
Where are the good players because i often hear the east is very weak and it is a freeroll for Lebron to the final for a lot of times.

So how can the league be so strong but at the same time a free roll for Lebron to the final and he never had good players with him like Jordan did?

ps: if Lebron so great, why not more mvp for him in the finals even when he lost while Jordan always was the best ?
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 07:15 PM   #4724
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,592
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Yeah, by team metrics Jordan has a few more titles. Team resumes when judging players especially when the crux of your argument is team achievement is silly. I know at this point it's the "only" thing that separates the two so that's why it's argued so hard.

4 MVPs vs 5 (Jordan got his last at 34) but we all know both were basically the best player in the league during most of their tenures so actual awards are a joke.

13 All NBA vs 11 All NBA for Jordan
6 All D vs 9 all D--Jordan get's the edge here
13 All Star vs 14--I expect Lebron to pass Jordan in 2 years
2nd in Career PER vs 1st-I expect Jordan to maintain #1 status
3 Finals MVPs vs 6--If Bron wins this year, he'll have 4 which will be the same as MJ at 32 years old
I expect Lebron to pass Jordan is almost every counting stat and he'll do it pretty soon.
I expect Jordan's Bulls to have more titles than Lebron will likely have especially as #1 option. With that being said, I wouldn't be shocked to see Lebron win titles as a lesser option in his twilight if he wants.
Well Jordan has much better points per game, better free throw shooter and FG% is basically equal and this is putting the last 2 years of Jordan season which was much lower than what we usually seem from him.

Lebron has the edge on the 3pts shooting but i guess this is due to the current playing system because Jordan did not really need it to do it.
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 07:18 PM   #4725
Gerb iLL
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 375
Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Yeah, by team metrics Jordan has a few more titles. Team resumes when judging players especially when the crux of your argument is team achievement is silly. I know at this point it's the "only" thing that separates the two so that's why it's argued so hard.

4 MVPs vs 5 (Jordan got his last at 34) but we all know both were basically the best player in the league during most of their tenures so actual awards are a joke.

13 All NBA vs 11 All NBA for Jordan
6 All D vs 9 all D--Jordan get's the edge here
13 All Star vs 14--I expect Lebron to pass Jordan in 2 years
2nd in Career PER vs 1st-I expect Jordan to maintain #1 status
3 Finals MVPs vs 6--If Bron wins this year, he'll have 4 which will be the same as MJ at 32 years old
I expect Lebron to pass Jordan is almost every counting stat and he'll do it pretty soon.
I expect Jordan's Bulls to have more titles than Lebron will likely have especially as #1 option. With that being said, I wouldn't be shocked to see Lebron win titles as a lesser option in his twilight if he wants.
Continuing to use "at this age" is an extremely disingenuous tactic to try to put the two on equal footing.

A poor attempt at manipulating an argument in one's favor.

Jordan entered the league at 21, LeBron at 18. Jordan played 15 seasons total, 13 with Chicago and his two Washington seasons during which he turned 39 and 40. LeBron is in his 14th season. Jordan absolutely without a doubt did more in his 13 Chicago seasons than LeBron did in his first 13 seasons.
Gerb iLL is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online