LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 - Page 14 - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

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LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163

View Poll Results: GOAT?

labron

181 30.42%

MJ (Michael or Maple)

317 53.28%

Therapist

8 1.34%

George Mikan

5 0.84%

Shaq Attaq

21 3.53%

Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo)

13 2.18%

Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan

20 3.36%

"Roger Murdock"

3 0.50%

Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?)

9 1.51%

Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh)

18 3.03%

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06-02-2013 , 09:08 PM

#326

capone0

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Winning titles is highly functional on surroundings. I'm not sure why this isn't sticking with you guys. Like replace MJ with Bron on the Bulls in the 90s, do they really not win less than 4 or 5 titles--maybe more b/c Bron doesn't seem to want to quit in the middle of his prime.

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06-02-2013 , 09:09 PM

#327

capone0

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trainwreckog

now you post stats that just aren't relevant.

the heat had 18 players and the bulls 15. right there, the numerator of your stat is garbage.

then the 96' bulls won 72 games to the heat's 66.. so now your denominator is garbage.

your stats are garbage. someone should put you over their knee.

How are they not relevant? Those are the %s for each team. For some reason, they are pretty damn close and again your inability to understand anything is revealed. You want me to do the top 10, it won't change the stats for either team.

You keep thinking things are so much different from MJ than Bron, when clearly anyone can see the numbers between the Bulls and Heat are clearly very close. That the distribution normalized by win shares for both teams are pretty similar. Again I guess you can't figure out when you are owned. Your stupid theories are again rebunked.

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06-02-2013 , 09:10 PM

#328

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by capone0

All the Heat need right now are donkeys like Miller, Battier, Chalmers and Allen hitting 3s like 2 of the 3 of them did vs OKC last year. The big problem is they aren't even hitting them when open. I guess it's a make or miss league. It's obviously also Lebron fault that Allen can't hit free throws in the playoffs.

easier to hit 3's when you are being fed from the post, instead of the more predictable, easier-to-help-on, penetration.

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06-02-2013 , 09:12 PM

#329

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by capone0

this is lol.

bron isn't dominant enough to quit yet. does he have a 3-peat to his credit?

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06-02-2013 , 09:14 PM

#330

capone0

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It's moreso that everyone other than MJ doesn't retire in the middle of their prime that Lebron probably won't. It has more to do with MJ being an outlier when it comes to career in the NBA with respect to retiring 3 times.

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06-02-2013 , 09:16 PM

#331

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by capone0

Maybe your math is terrible but here goes. Win Shares Per Player/Win Shares for the Team

Man the distributions between the 2012-13 Heat and the 1995-1996 Bulls are really totally skewed towards the Heat...LOL. The sick part is the Bulls have a 75.6 Win Shares for the Team vs 64.8 for the Heat.

Code:

Heat	Bulls
30%	27%
15%	16%
14%	13%
8%	11%
8%	8%
7%	8%
5%	5%
4%	4%
4%	3%
2%	2%
2%	2%
1%	1%

lol, okay i get it - your articulation was very poor -

the numerator should not have said "ws per player", as i took that to mean average win share per player.

it should have just said "player win share."

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06-02-2013 , 09:22 PM

#332

trainwreckog

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so that cleared up, the numbers once again support my case.

lebron has 30% of his teams win share? that is 12% higher than mj (mj's numerical value still higher).

the entire distribution shows more balance with the bulls (4 guys in double figures compared to 3 for the heat, six guys 8% or higher compared to five for the heat)

this not insignificant considering the heat have the better talent. and of course this was for the regular season.

we need to do this same analysis for the playoffs, and i'm sure the gaps are even wider. and also series by series.

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06-02-2013 , 09:25 PM

#333

capone0

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i'm just done. you are just really dense.

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06-02-2013 , 09:25 PM

#334

VincentVega

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can somebody whos got some time to kill and is generous explain how winshares are figured? Like what measures are used to create the number and why is it relevant? Basically a friendly breakdown of that would be cool so i can better understand it. Or point me in the right direction if you don't feel like explaining it. Thanks

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06-02-2013 , 09:29 PM

#335

airwave16

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this has been, is now, and forever will be the stupidest question in all of sport.

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06-02-2013 , 09:29 PM

#336

Noze

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Odds on how long it takes for capone to engage trainwreckaids again?

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06-02-2013 , 09:33 PM

#337

capone0

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentVega

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

it's really not that complicated.

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06-02-2013 , 09:36 PM

#338

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentVega

ws is the number of wins contributed by a player based on both their offense (offensive win share or ows), and defense (defensive win share, dws).

ows is added to dws to get total ws.

more specifically, ows measures how much a player contributes to wins via their offense by measuring how much greater certain stats of a player are when compared to an average player at the same minute/playing time level (actually # of possessions played, pace-adjusted to the league).

honestly, i don't know how they statistically calculate dws. i haven't really looked. just sort of assumed it was bogus, whatever it was.
.

Last edited by trainwreckog; 06-02-2013 at 09:55 PM.

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06-02-2013 , 09:40 PM

#339

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by capone0

i'm just done. you are just really dense.

you are okay with lebron's teammates having the same or lower ws than jordan's less talented bulls, and feel this is not a significant arguing point.

that's fine. but if this sh*t was being tried in a court of law for real instead of this silly forum, all this sh*t would come up i promise.

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06-02-2013 , 09:46 PM

#340

Palo

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Steve Kerr in his athletic prime was not as good a defender as 38 year old Ray Allen. Everytime he stepped on floor he was a defensive liability and often could not be used. He was almost always subbed out in crunch time if possible when his team was going on defense and then would get subbed back in on time stoppages when they went on offense. He was tremendous as a spot up 3 shooter and at making FT's but was completely worthless otherwise from his rookie year to retirement. He was an unathletic 6'3" SG who couldn't guard anyone and couldn't create his own shot ever.

Last edited by Palo; 06-02-2013 at 09:52 PM.

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06-02-2013 , 09:48 PM

#341

capone0

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Kerr was a perfect offensive role player which worked well when you play with some of the GOATs and a strong D surrounding him. He's a good floor spacer. He is the opposite of Bowen.

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06-02-2013 , 09:51 PM

#342

Steroid Boy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Noze

Odds on how long it takes for capone to engage trainwreckaids again?

it really is amazing

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06-02-2013 , 09:53 PM

#343

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by capone0

Kerr was a perfect offensive role player which worked well when you play with some of the GOATs and a strong D surrounding him. He's a good floor spacer. He is the opposite of Bowen.

so why can't ray allen and chalmers do the same as kerr did? or bosh contribute as well as kukocs? and on down the line?

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06-02-2013 , 10:06 PM

#344

trainwreckog

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wade is fos for wanting to be the heat's 2nd playmaker. what a fool for wanting to make plays so they are a tougher team.

lebron's style has bosh standing at the 3-pt line all game. just based on that he won't get anywhere near 6 rings.

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06-02-2013 , 10:10 PM

#345

tuq

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Noze

Odds on how long it takes for capone to engage trainwreckaids again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steroid Boy

it really is amazing

I only opened this thread for the first time (post reported) but am losing count of how many times capone0 has been "done" arguing with trainwreckdog in various NBA threads only to pick back up a few minutes later. It's hilarious.

Oh yeah and vs. GOAT discussions really are among the worst things on the internet. Everyone making serious posts itt should be embarrassed for themselves. I'll be leaving now.

Last edited by tuq; 06-02-2013 at 10:16 PM.

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06-02-2013 , 10:16 PM

#346

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tuq

I only opened this thread for the first time but am losing count of how many times capone0 has been "done" arguing with trainwreckdog in various NBA threads only to pick back up a few minutes later. It's hilarious.

Oh yeah and vs. GOAT discussions really are among the worst things on the internet. Everyone making serious posts itt should be embarrassed for themselves. I'll be leaving now.

i wouldn't feel so down about it. perhaps goat discussions should never occur.

otherwise, internet forums are the closest thing to any real debate on the issue.

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06-02-2013 , 11:18 PM

#347

trainwreckog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by capone0

Maybe your math is terrible but here goes. Win Shares Per Player/Win Shares for the Team

Man the distributions between the 2012-13 Heat and the 1995-1996 Bulls are really totally skewed towards the Heat...LOL. the Bulls have a 75.6 Win Shares for the Team vs 64.8 for the Heat.

Code:

Heat	Bulls
30%	27%
15%	16%
14%	13%
8%	11%
8%	8%
7%	8%
5%	5%
4%	4%
4%	3%
2%	2%
2%	2%
1%	1%

because they won more games genius.

putting each player's ws as a percentage of the total team ws is a clever way of hiding the 6 extra wins the bulls had and says nothing about the gap in talent (my whole point) because you didn't include the names.

nice one capone.

then you write like a 1st grader mislabeling your columns so misinterpreted the numbers and couldn't call you out appropriately initially.
.

Last edited by trainwreckog; 06-02-2013 at 11:24 PM.

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06-02-2013 , 11:46 PM

#348

VincentVega

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That definition of winshares i guess is fine but I can't see why its deemed to be that important unless you give me some context of it. I'll go read what is said on b-ref now though. Not attacking you TWD...i appreciate your help and the link capone.

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06-03-2013 , 12:22 AM

#349

VincentVega

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ok i read that outline. I'll need to plunge into the details at some point but its too late and don't think id be able to fully retain everything right now. Thanks again. Should have done this a long time ago.

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06-03-2013 , 12:43 AM

#350

trainwreckog

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let's take lebron.. say he played 2000 possessions in the season for the heat.... his offensive win share would be a measure of how much more offensive production he had over and above what would be the average of guys that played 2000 possessions.

originally i said minutes instead of possessions, but it is possessions, actually pace-adjusted possessions (as miami plays at a pace different from the league average).

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