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LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163
View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron
181 30.42%
MJ (Michael or Maple)
317 53.28%
Therapist
8 1.34%
George Mikan
5 0.84%
Shaq Attaq
21 3.53%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo)
13 2.18%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan
20 3.36%
"Roger Murdock"
3 0.50%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?)
9 1.51%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh)
18 3.03%

06-02-2013 , 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfasdf32
What's with Jordan homers and their affinity for dick sucking/slurping references?
this is the problem with lebron fans. I'm not a jordan homer. I also love to watch lebron play ball. He's my second favorite player to watch behind Steve Nash sans this year. This conversation has really brought out the insecurities in a lot of people.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:05 PM
I think the biggest difference between groups is due to the killer instinct concept. There is this vision of Jordan as a win at all costs eat your beating heart guy while Labron isn't perceived to have that, but plays an arguably more beautiful/aesthetically pleasing style that is super amazing in its own right. It's part of why the Kobe myth is so popular. People love that killer instinct. Once Labron gets the rangs, I think the resistance will melt since with the rangs will necessarily come plenty more moments of WIM from Labron to quiet the haters.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
Can you tell me how you can determine this? Like do you have the ability to tell which players are elevating other players or are you purely using results which can lead to a lot of noise when it comes to whether players are making other players better or that they just have better teammates. If you look at Jordans stats, they really don't get that much better after years 3 and 4, but his teammates definitely got better over time. Was it really Jordan elevating them or was it his teammates either improving?

Basically you are giving some BS arguments of why some people win and others don't. When it typically comes down to which team has the best overall talent, matchups, injuries and chemistry which is typically not always dependent on the alpha dog. Duncan, like Jordan, were extremely fortunate to be in great situations for the prime of their career much of which had little to do with their level of play. Like other "non winners" they could have been put on teams with little chance to win a title and effectively lived in infamy. While I love to believe certain players elevate their team to titles, I think that type of thing can't easily be determined. What can more easily be determined in an individual's level of play.
i didn't want to post about this again until after game 7, but then i realized the hopeful feeling i was having was familiar - the same feeling i have w/ a pp waiting for the flop, even if pacers chances are better than that.

so f it.

hey capone, my friend, how would you explain mj's teammates registering higher ws numbers than lebron's more talented teammates?
.

Last edited by trainwreckog; 06-02-2013 at 08:14 PM.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty
I think the biggest difference between groups is due to the killer instinct concept. There is this vision of Jordan as a win at all costs eat your beating heart guy while Labron isn't perceived to have that, but plays an arguably more beautiful/aesthetically pleasing style that is super amazing in its own right. It's part of why the Kobe myth is so popular. People love that killer instinct. Once Labron gets the rangs, I think the resistance will melt since with the rangs will necessarily come plenty more moments of WIM from Labron to quiet the haters.
Jordan's fadeaway is the greatest shot in basketball history. He was also a better dunker than Lebron. Surprised you'd say this as a bulls fan.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:15 PM
probably has to do with Wade missing games and not playing an insane amount of minutes like Pippen did. Wade WS/48 is still above Pippen's at his peak if you average his last 3 years.

The distributions of win shares and ws/48 between this years Heat in the regular season and the best Bulls team are pretty similar. The big difference is minutes for the top level players. I will also argue that the Bulls had a pretty damn good 2-3 and then 4-8 with 2 HOFers during both runs and some of the best role players of all time.

Code:
	Name    Games	MP	PER	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
LeBron James	76	2877	31.6	14.6	4.7	19.3	0.322
Dwyane Wade	69	2391	24	6.1	3.5	9.6	0.192
Chris Bosh	74	2454	20	5.6	3.4	9	0.175
Ray Allen	79	2035	14.7	3.4	1.9	5.4	0.126
Mario Chalmers	77	2068	13.3	2.6	2.5	5.2	0.12
Shane Battier	72	1786	10.7	2.8	1.6	4.4	0.119
Udonis Haslem	75	1414	9.9	1.2	2	3.2	0.108
Chris Andersen	42	624	17.4	1.6	1.1	2.7	0.207
Mike Miller	59	900	13.5	1.6	1	2.6	0.137
Code:
    Player	G	MP	PER	OWS	DWS	WS
Michael Jordan	82	3090	29.4	14.2	6.2	20.4
Scottie Pippen	77	2825	21	7	5.3	12.3
Toni Kukoc	81	2103	20.4	6.9	3.2	10.1
Steve Kerr	82	1919	15.2	6	2.3	8.3
Ron Harper	80	1886	14.4	3	3.3	6.3
Dennis Rodman	64	2088	13.6	1.7	4.6	6.2
Luc Longley	62	1641	11.9	0.7	2.8	3.5
Bill Wennington	71	1065	11	1.2	1.6	2.8
Jud Buechler	74	740	14.1	1	1.2	2.3

Last edited by capone0; 06-02-2013 at 08:20 PM.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, & borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonbison
It's been a while since I posted a helpful thread here in micro, and after a good long day at the 3/6 tables, I decided I'd write up a little something on the notes I take during and after play.

Right now I 4-table 3/6, and I end up seeing the same players, often good, day in and day out. At 3/6, you run into the same people more often than you do at 2/4 (or 1/2 or .5/1). The game remains the same, but as you move up, it becomes more and more important to find tables with unskilled players and adjust to the play of skilled players. To help me with this, there are 3 basic things I use:

1. PokerTracker stat profiles.
Some players here don't use pokertracker, or use it mainly to track their own play and results over time. Beyond the simple accounting and storage of hands for myself, I mainly use it to keep track of my opponents. PT makes this easier by allowing you to export stats (through the advanced export feature) and to assign icons to track player profiles. In the newest beta patch, which I recommend everyone download, you can set up different stat ranges for each icon, and have PT automatically update each player's profile to make sure they're in the right range.

MS Sunshine had a very popular post (which someone can link to) that detailed his stat standards for passive, very passive, tight, v. tight, aggro and so on. At the moment, PT provides 12 icons. I use one of these to mark 2+2ers, and 11 to sort everybody else.

Everybody gets a preflop designation and a postflop designation. If there were more icons, I'd break it down more precisely, but I've found this is pretty helpful so far. The stats I use are VP$IP (basically, pre-flop tightness), PFR (preflop aggression) and Total Aggression (not counting preflop, so it gives us a nice summary of postflop aggression).

Loose-Passives
LP-P - fish icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
LP-A - elephant icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).
sLP-P - phone icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
sLP-A - ? icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).

Loose-Aggressives
LA-P - dice icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
LA-A - taz icon - Loose preflop (VP > 30). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).
sLA-P - frown icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
sLA-A - smile icon - slightly Loose preflop (30 > VP > 20). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).

Tight-Passives
TP-P - rock icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1.5).
TP-A - mouse icon - Tight preflop (VP < 30). Passive preflop (PFR < 5). Aggressive postflop (TOT-A > 1.5).

Tight-Aggressives
TA-P - triangle icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR > 5). Passive postflop (TOT-A < 1).
TA-N - eagle icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Neutral postflop (1 < TOT-A < 2).
TA-A - moneybag icon - Tight preflop (VP < 20). Aggro preflop (PFR < 5). Aggro postflop (TOT-A > 2). This is the group I am in and the group you want to be in.

I automatically assign anyone with 30 hands to these categories, and advance export notes on everyone with > 20 hands after each day's session. In the end, everyone I've played 3 orbits with has the # of hands, the icon, the 2 preflop stats and the street by street postflop aggression stats exported.

For those wondering, here are the breakdowns by group count from all my hands this year (min. 30 hands):

LP-P - 1604
LP-A - 267
sLP-P - 578
sLP-A - 231

LA-P - 948
LA-A - 538
sLA-P - 307
sLA-A - 391

TP-P - 417
TP-A - 320

TA-P - 92
TA-N - 168
TA-A - 342

2. The PT game time window.
All that exported stuff is well and good, but it's static, and you'll often want to keep running tabs on players that are new (or get a substantial number of hands) during a given session. For this, I set PT to request HHs every 5 minutes, import hand histories the moment they arrive, and keep an external game time window open at all times.

That way, I can switch the game time window to the current session quickly and make preflop decisions a lot easier. UTG raises, (I see he's not a rock so I confidently 3-bet w/TT) then see what his postflop aggression looks like to have a vague hint as to whether he'd push at me with overcards. It's not precise, but as a multi-tabler, it's really helpful.

3. Shorthand notes.
For the moment, party and it's affiliates are restricting the character count of player notes to something like 84 characters, which is not a lot. With this in mind, I'm going to tell you to ignore preflop notes. Honestly, unless he does something really interesting like not raise from blinds with AK or QQ, you're better off using your notes for postflop action where the decisions are more important. What notes you should take is up to you, but I do something like the following:

"Player made a flop bet into the preflop raiser in a multiway pot with bottom pair" becomes "F b 2 pf-r mw w/bp"

"Calls down with any part of the board" becomes "cd w/apob"

"checkraised flopped trips on turn" becomes "cr F trp T" with the possible addendum "w/o pf-r".

That way when the flop comes I can open up everyone's notes real quick and see:

"b 2 LPpf-r w/bp on prdF" - "Bet into late position preflop raiser with bottom pair on a paired flop" (note, bp meaning not trips)

or

"no b F OESD mw" - "Did not bet a flopped openended straight draw multiway."

or

"blf cr scr T flsh w/nil HU pf-r" - "bluff check-raised a scary turn flush card with nothing heads up vs. the pre-flop raiser (and probable aggressor in hand)"

-------------------------------

That's all I have to say. That's my system, feel free to use it or change it or ignore it. I just thought that the prospect of note-taking on all the people you see may seem daunting to a lot of people but it boils down to this:

Let pokertracker handle some automatic sorting and use your limited time and space to note the unusual things that your opponents do.
Yes, Lebron made WAIDS miss those wide open layups and made Bosh miss those wide open jumpers.

Not enough leadership I guess
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentVega
Jordan's fadeaway is the greatest shot in basketball history.
Nope.

LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darO
Yes, Lebron made WAIDS miss those wide open layups and made Bosh miss those wide open jumpers.

Not enough leadership I guess
Agreed, bison is totally wrong about 'BRON there.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
probably has to do with Wade missing games and not playing an insane amount of minutes like Pippen did. Wade WS/48 is still above Pippen's at his peak if you average his last 3 years.

The distributions of win shares and ws/48 between this years Heat in the regular season and the best Bulls team are pretty similar. The big difference is minutes for the top level players. I will also argue that the Bulls had a pretty damn good 2-3 and then 4-8 with 2 HOFers during both runs and some of the best role players of all time.
cancel out robins wade and pip.

but what about bosh vs kukocs?

what about ray allen vs kerr?

those guys are the next in line after the robins
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:21 PM
how is it kerr/kukocs are "some of the best role players of all time" but ray allen and bosh can't be?

how is it their offense is contributing more to wins (high level definition of offensive win share) than bosh/allen?
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:22 PM
ray allen is old as ****. his stats are right in line with what he was doing for the celts.

bosh's ws/48 are again in line with his career and near his peak. the big difference is the # of minutes played. he peaked at 10 WS in toronto but he played a lot more minutes.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
how is it kerr is "one of the best role players of all time" but ray allen can't be?
kerr left the bulls at 32, Ray is 38. are you really this dense?
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:27 PM
can't hide behind the age thing. ray allen at 38 is more talented than kerr at 32, easily.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:28 PM
peak kukoc as a 4th option was pretty great. he sucked afterwards.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
how is it kerr is "one of the best role players of all time" but ray allen can't be?
Allen absolutely has that capability even though he is struggling currently.

The biggest problem is the level of athleticism that are exhibited by even average wing players makes Allen's decline in athleticism a much bigger deal on the defensive end. If Kerr was transported to this era I feel he would have the same problem.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
can't hide behind the age thing. ray allen at 38 is more talented than kerr at 32, easily.
yes you can. ray has been fading for years with the Celtics. He isn't going to explode all of sudden for the Heat when he's another year older. Ray was a solid player this season and has been mediocre in the post season. you are just being ridiculous like you always are. again i'm going to stop responding to you since you are seriously an idiot.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:30 PM
kerr is far less athletic than ray allen.

ray allen can still dunk with two hands backwards and it the goat shooter, something you don't lose with age.

kerr could probably barely dunk with one hand.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
yes you can. ray has been fading for years with the Celtics. He isn't going to explode all of sudden for the Heat when he's another year older. Ray was a solid player this season and has been mediocre in the post season. you are just being ridiculous like you always are. again i'm going to stop responding to you since you are seriously an idiot.
age doesn't explain mario chalmers or the rest of the heat roster also having a lower ows and ws than kerr and the rest of the bulls squad.

the tables you posted listing the ws for the respective rosters clearly support my case. i'm not sure why you posted them.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
age doesn't explain mario chalmers or the rest of the heat roster also having a lower ows and ws than kerr and the rest of the bulls squad.

the tables you posted listing the ws for the respective rosters clearly support my case. i'm not sure why you posted them.
it's always funny seeing you argue statistics
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:38 PM
This 38 Ray Allen def greater than 32 Kerr. I don't think it's close. Kerry's post Bulls career is a great example of why in case all the obvious differences aren't enough.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:40 PM
Maybe your math is terrible but here goes. Win Shares Per Player/Win Shares for the Team

Man the distributions between the 2012-13 Heat and the 1995-1996 Bulls are really totally skewed towards the Heat...LOL. The sick part is the Bulls have a 75.6 Win Shares for the Team vs 64.8 for the Heat.

Code:
Heat	Bulls
30%	27%
15%	16%
14%	13%
8%	11%
8%	8%
7%	8%
5%	5%
4%	4%
4%	3%
2%	2%
2%	2%
1%	1%
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty
This 38 Ray Allen def greater than 32 Kerr. I don't think it's close. Kerry's post Bulls career is a great example of why in case all the obvious differences aren't enough.
I mean is this version better? Ray can't hit a shot and plays matador defense.

How can you get worse than the shooting display battier and Allen have put on? It double crushes Miami because Indiana is playing a style that is going to let them get open shots and be at a disadvantage on defense, and they are shooting 15%
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 08:45 PM
All the Heat need right now are donkeys like Miller, Battier, Chalmers and Allen hitting 3s like 2 of the 3 of them did vs OKC last year. The big problem is they aren't even hitting them when open. I guess it's a make or miss league. It's obviously also Lebron fault that Allen can't hit free throws in the playoffs.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
Can you tell me how you can determine this? Like do you have the ability to tell which players are elevating other players or are you purely using results which can lead to a lot of noise when it comes to whether players are making other players better or that they just have better teammates. If you look at Jordans stats, they really don't get that much better after years 3 and 4, but his teammates definitely got better over time. Was it really Jordan elevating them or was it his teammates either improving?

Basically you are giving some BS arguments of why some people win and others don't. When it typically comes down to which team has the best overall talent, matchups, injuries and chemistry which is typically not always dependent on the alpha dog. Duncan, like Jordan, were extremely fortunate to be in great situations for the prime of their career much of which had little to do with their level of play. Like other "non winners" they could have been put on teams with little chance to win a title and effectively lived in infamy. While I love to believe certain players elevate their team to titles, I think that type of thing can't easily be determined. What can more easily be determined in an individual's level of play.
You call it chemistry. I call it making everyone around you better. Playing a team sport as a team. Same ***** really. It's just semantics.

Basketball is not tennis. It is a team sport. They are not out there playing 1 on 1. You don't even get into the basketball GOAT conversation until you have multiple championships. It's guys like Russell, Magic, Kareem, and Jordan that are in the discussion. Wilt has only 2 titles but was a huge force. His lack of titles is what likely keeps him out of being at the top of the list. If Wilt had 5+ titles he might be at the top. Point is winning counts..
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote
06-02-2013 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
Maybe your math is terrible but here goes. Win Shares Per Player/Win Shares for the Team

Man the distributions between the 2012-13 Heat and the 1995-1996 Bulls are really totally skewed towards the Heat...LOL. The sick part is the Bulls have a 75.6 Win Shares for the Team vs 64.8 for the Heat.

Code:
Heat	Bulls
30%	27%
15%	16%
14%	13%
8%	11%
8%	8%
7%	8%
5%	5%
4%	4%
4%	3%
2%	2%
2%	2%
1%	1%

the heat had 18 players and the bulls 15. right there, the numerator of your stat is garbage.

then the 96' bulls won 72 games to the heat's 66.. so now your denominator is garbage.

your stats are garbage. someone should put you over their knee.
LeBron = GOAT Containment Thread: SABR42, LuckyLloyd, &amp; borg23 Co-MVPs b/c of post #20163 Quote

      
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