Tien .
Ill give you an example .
Might be wrong but it is my POV.

Take Shaq for example .
You say Shaq dominate in the 2000 because Kobe emerge right ?
Why didn’t Shaq dominate previously just because of Kobe not being there ?
Or maybe just maybe Shaq had real GOOD competition in the 90 ?!?

When Shaq won scoring champion ? 1995 already ... when MJ was not there .
When Shaq dominate first team nba ? When Hakeem /Robinson / Ewing were gone or completely at the end of the line in their career .
Just look at the 1st/2nd /3rd all nba team in the 90 and Shaq couldn’t dominate them .
He was there but not at the top .

Everyone speak about physicality of LeBron bla bla .
Shaq was not able to dominate but MJ did .....half a foot smaller than Shaq and much lighter vs those same players .

All I’m saying , the 90 had very good players and none of them came close to MJ domination , even on individual stats not just team success.

Now some might say , well it is the same thing with MJ !
He did not have the team success until big stars of the 80 were gone , like Shaq success in the early 2000 when all the big stars of the 90 were pratically gone .

But the difference is that MJ was already dominating in the 80 , just did not have team success.
Shaq was very good in the 90 but couldn’t dominate individually or team success because simply , he had very good competition in the 90 ....

Anyway that is how I see things.

Shaq was dominantly lazy.

Kobe was the piece Shaq and later Pau needed to get their rings.

Shaq's a Top 10 player OAT, but underachieved.

Should have been GOAT.

In today's game Shaq would be more like Drummond than like Giannis. Couldn't shoot. Not skilled passing or defending.

Matt R. said Kobe / Duncan / Shaq couldn't dominate in the 90s because of Jordan.

Kobe was a 18 year old rookie in 1997. Never played Jordan in playoffs and Kobe sucked until the year 2000. Jordan had nothing to do with Kobe sucking for his first 3 years.
Duncan was 21 year old rookie in 1998 and won the championship in 1999. So Matt R. and you are wrong again on this point.
Garnett was a 18 year old rookie in 1996 and drafted to a garbage Minnesota team, never played Jordan in playoffs. Made his first 3rd team all-nba in 1999 at 23 years old.
Shaq beat Jordan in 1995 and is 1-1 against Jordan.


So the Matt R. (montrealcorp) argument that they couldn't dominate because of Jordan is one of the stupidest arguments I've seen on this forum. But coming from him, I am not surprised, he just doesn't watch basketball games.


Who knew NBA players start dominating when they hit their early prime, which normally begins 22-23 years old.

WTF are you talking about? Shaq can't dominate in the 90s yet he beat Jordan in 1995! Jordan averaged 31/4/6 against Orlando and lost. Shaq is 1-1 against Jordan in the playoffs.





Shaq started dominating right away in the 90s when he turned 21/22 in 94.

By the time he was 27 in 1999-2000 season he was at his apex prime and ripped 3 straight championships. Guess who else hit his prime at 27? Michael Jordan in 1991 and Jordan ripped 3 of the greatest seasons ever in a row from 91-93. Who knew player's peak prime is around 27 and not 18 years old?

So yes, you and Matt R. are wrong.

Again, this isn't even an argument, this is a history refreshment lesson which bores me.

Shaq today would force teams to load up on immobile big men and run sub optimal lineups.

But only Shaq would force this, teams today won't adjust for Patrick Ewing type centers.

Imagine trying to put PJ Tucker on Shaq. That wouldn't last 1 quarter.

If you really believe that i just do not know what else can i tell you.
It is obvious you never play elite level sports, not even pass city level.

To expect Jordan perform at goat level after being absent almost 2 years , with a bit of a different team, and be at the same level as when he retired, in 17 games practice is rubbish, seriously....
And how Jordan showed it in 96 and afterwards is pretty obvious.
they swept shaq.

your logic :
shaq was dominating mid 90s because :
Shaq got swept by hakeem but was able to beat 1995 Jordan ?
what was hakeem then ? the goat if he could swept a dominant shaq ?
Why was shaq able to win in 1995 the scoring champ ?
Jordan as absent obviously...

tien i am not here to win an arguments and you do not need to straw man me...

first off about Duncan, garnett etc.
You want to take the stance that someone being an all stars is not good players is fine, i just do not agree.
Duncan(98) garnett (97/98)were able to be all stars in 90s even if they were young, shrug.
So they were not sucking and jordan was playing at that time.

about shaq, i said 1st team nba, really dominating.
He did great in 1995 finishing second but afterwards he could not , ewing, robinson and hakeem were there....and shaq won in 1995 because mj was not there for scoring championship.
i am not saying he sucks but he was not dominant like the 2000.

was his age played a part ?
maybe but regardless, who was there to stop him once those 1990 center players were gone or end of their career really ?
he was great with a huge season in 1995 but could not repeat it ? why ?


you think magic jordan and bird were not dominant at those ages already ???

All of this comes from the supposedly 90s players sucked , explaining was jordan was good do not make sense.
Lot of 90s players overlap the 2000....kidd , shaq,etc. and the "young" ones good enough to be all stars...

Have you played sports at an elite level?

[QUOTE Who knew player's peak prime is around 27 [/QUOTE]

Bill James. He did a study on that exact thing re best seasons and MVP ages. Came up 27. That's baseball of course.

I wouldn't take Shaq on my all-time team, not even close. At least 5 guys ahead of him. His passing, defense, free throw shooting and stupidity were dubious when up against GOATs. Kareem, Chamberlain, Walton, Olajuwon, Russell, Moses.

Do you watch the highlights of his 3's? Curry hardly makes any 3's set up like this. Most of them are off the dribble or off a little screen/hand-offs. There's nobody on the Warriors driving and dishing, if anyone is, it's usually him.

I think teams would just hack-a-shaq all game now. Scoring 1 point on a possession today is much worse than it was in the 90's.

And the interior defense he provided in the 90's game is much less relevant today.

He might make a few all star teams in this era, but he wouldn't be anywhere near the MVP on a 3peat team.

Dwight Howard probably his best comp. And the years when Howard was dominating were years Shaq could've dominated too. But the last 5-7 years of NBA basketball would not have been so kind to a Shaq type player.

Shaq now would be less effective. Can't shoot. Can't defend two steps out. Can't get up and down.

Well can, but won't.

If he lost 30 pounds he might be able.

He's like a gigantic, immobile Zion. Huge defensive liability now.

Shaq would still be great on offense. He relied on strength and positioning to get deep inside the paint where he did all his damage. He had better footwork and finishing ability than Dwight Howard ever did. He was also a better and more willing passer than Howard. The increased 3-point shooting today would mean that if you guard Shaq with multiple players he'd find some open 3's for you, even though he can't shoot himself.

His lack of motor on defense would be a big problem. He'd deter a lot of interior attempts and get a ton of defensive rebounds, but guys like Vucevic would just rain 3's on him all day. However, you can't switch line-ups on offense and defense every position, and Shaq would force you to play some big donkeys in order to adequately defend him and eat up some fouls so your main guys don't foul out. He'd still be great today, just less impactful.

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Yep and spacing is better today because shooters have way longer range, making it much easier for Shaq to dominate 1-1

I'd snap take prime Shaq over prime MJ in today's game.

You're confusing Shaq with Embiid. Shaw's complete inability to shoot would be a liability. He'd be like a big less mobile Zion. That's not a bad player, but it's not too ten all time.

Olajuwon would be a super stud in today's game.

Comparing Shaq with Dwight is putting the bar too low though.

lol @ Shaq not being awesome in today's game.

Weird stuff from LeBron. How many of the GOAT candidates have one FG at half in a spot like this? It's weird, you gotta admit. Meanwhile 20 times bitching at the refs from the King. Maybe he can take over for Coach K at Duke with this whining factor on steroids and such, like Mike ... Mike Kroosawooski. I wish we had Barkley and Shaq to comment on this.

He's 36 and coming off the biggest injury of his career. And he's turning it on down the stretch.

It was strange though, he was passing everything for the first 30 minutes of the game.

okay were on shaq now.

First off Shaq never dominated Jordan. Some of you don't understand to be at the
top level you have to live your craft, not play baseball. The following here Jordan
swept the Magic bad & won 72 games WTF !!!!

Shaq could play today, but he wouldn't be as dominate. The more physical the rules
the better for Shaq period. This era not good for shaq. But haven't said that 7,2 and
athletic for a huge 7,2 is still a force. I see him as a more physical bigger dwight Howard. They both not super skilled like Hakeem or the Joker. But Shaq had good
moves done low, and really only Yao Ming could block shot.

End of the day, Jordan still triumphs. I think too many Lebron guys would say he's
a better athlete because he's bigger and still run jumps accelerates etc. But that extra weight Lebron carries is the reason he doesn't and probably can't go 100% all game.
Thats why Jordan has DPOY,, imagine doing that while winning a scoring title.j
Guys Jordan would play 36 F-ing wholes of golf & play that night & get 40 plus.
Other athletes marvel at him J Roenick, David Robinson, Magic, goes on and on.

An overall concensus poll of say GM's coaches and players, MJ would win. Not
to mention here on 2+2. As of today MJ is the GOAT of ALL ALTHETES.

The 90s game being a lot slower is a thing that affects the game.....

Lol at playing golf being a sign of his greatness. That's backwards.

James is a Drama King. Always was. He's like A-Rod.

And he hits the biggest shot of the game, stfu.