The post match tweets back and forth between them were pretty funny anatta.

Just happened to catch a 1990 Pistons - Blazers game on ESPN. Those Blazers teams don't seem to get the mid level of respect received by teams which failed to 'ship because they ran into GOAT. The Jazz that ran into the Bulls seem to get at least a bit of acknowledgement that they were an excellent team that was unlucky to run into prime MJ.

Blazers made two finals against great Pistons and Bulls teams, but they had a very good team themselves. They were really deep and good. Unfortunately their peak overlapped the better Pistons and Bulls.

Wait what? You're trying to say Lebron James is more clutch than Larry Bird? Wtf? I mean Lebron for half his career was considered a choker and the 2nd half became average in the clutch, maybe even above average if i want to throw him a bone. But to say he more clutch than Bird is the most absurd thing in this thread to date. That's with hearing one time Curry a choker in this thread(LOL) because he didn't have a great series the year cavs beat them while he played through ankle injuries.

Lebron on heat had to defer to Wade in the clutch, bigtime rightfully so. Who would Bird ever to defer to in the clutch? Answer NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF BASKETBALL!!!!

Off top of my head game on the line clutch has to be Bird and Jordan. After that not sure.

No disrspect but cmon you guys push the lebron goat thing even though we all know it not true. But to say more clutch then Larry legend is ridiculous. Lebron might be a better all intangibles player to help a team, but no way he as clutch as maybe the greatest clutch player ever.

We forget Bird would tell his opponents where on the court he was gonna get the ball and that he was gonna shoot it in their face, and still do it.

Lebron isn't considered for goat because of his clutch. He is considered because of his athleticism and talent for a man his size. But to try to make that into he had Bird or Jordan's assassin mentality is beyond ridiculous. There is no discussion there.

Kobe had that assassin mentality.

Some of the worst clutch %'s but man, he wanted the shot. LeBron was considered a choker by people who worshipped at the altar of MJ and refused to accept him setting up Donyell Marshall instead of shooting over 3 guys is actually a good shot.

When MJ does it and Paxson or Kerr hits it, smart. When LeBron does it, non-clutch. The narrative was that Jordan grew into that wisdom, truth is LeBron did it out of the box.

I think this may be the first time I've disagreed with you. You citing hype about Bird's trash talk has nothing to do about who could actually get the team the best shot. Part of the issue is one of definition of terms. What's clutch? To me it's getting an optimal shot off for the team, not hero ball.

Not saying Bird didn't have some big plays, but it's silly to ask if you'd (this moment) rather have peak Bird or peak Bron to find your team a good last second shot against modern players. If you don't think Bron could've been clutch against the slow, sloppy dudes of the 80s I don't know what to tell you. You're arguing mystique and narratives, tough to counter dragon slaying.

Yeah, i wanted to put Kobe on their for clutch but i didn't because sometimes it didn't work out. Kobe probably was clutch but the problem was they knew 100 percent he was gonna shoot so they were all over him. They were all over Jordan too but Jordan goat could figure out a way. Could still get to the rim to score or get fouled.

Bird didn't have that driving ability but but he had a better abiltiy to find the open man if they didn't double or triple team him. Lebron has that abiltiy too but i thought the question was when actually taking the shot. Not who best to set up someone else. If the ball is realeased from one man's hand i wanted to be Jordan or Bird. Where Lebron would be someone in the top 100 maybe if he's lucky. He's not special there. But for setting up yeah he's really really good at that.

Citing the hype was for fun but i really do believe there is a big difference in assassin stone cold clutch in regards to Bird and Jordan and the rest of the world.

I totally disagree saying it silly to think Bird could find your team a better last second shot. Bird had great vision and was a great passer. Add that in with his deadly shot he's more dangerous there. Only thing Lebron had over him was driving. Which could be an argument for him being better there but his driving not as good as Bird's shooting.

I have never seen Lebron as clutch. I've seen him improve at clutch after talking to Tebow(you remember when he admitted to wanting to tap into his clutchness) but he's never been that dude. That dude is reserved for Jordan, Bird, and maybe Kobe. Maybe Curry as well.

Bird is one of the greatest shooter ever , period .
What difference does it makes the years he did it ????
explain to me how a free throw shooter is better today than 30 years ago if both shot 90% ???
Bird won multiple times 3 pts competition and he said it with confidence he wouldn’t lose without a sweat .

Bird was one the rare player to achieve 50/40/90 stats and he did it twice !

All mc lovin had it right !
LeBron Has a decision makers is clutch ( not the goat but very clutch ) , that I have no problem .
But as a shooting clutch ???
Which would Bring LeBron being one the greatest shooter ever in nba , no freakn way ....
Hell with all his amazing body he doesn’t even drive to the basket , get fooled for the free throw to win the games ...
Why you think ?
Because his confident in his shooting ability ?
Please ,...

The question is who do you want the ball in their hands at the end of the game? They have the ball w/ 10 seconds or watever.

That doesn't mean that person has to shoot, for example Jordan to Paxson, Kerr, Wennington.

Bird not being a good driver is a big deal.

If they have to be shooting it's going to be the obvious list of: Reggie, MJ, Ray Allen, Klay, Durant, etc.

Sure, whatever, add Larry Bird to the list with Jerry West and Robert Horry. (I always think of his big clutch play as the pass to DJ tho.)

Bron has a decent list of big shots tho (as has already been documented).

Yes but bird was an amazing passer , could steal the ball in clutch time ( like MJ did vs Malone ) , etc .

As much LeBron is weaker shooter than bird , LeBron is a better driver but he just ****ing doesn’t do it because is not as confident at the free throw line .

Anyway for me , decision making .
Bird or LeBron is a wash Imo
Shooting = bird
Driving = LeBron .

Ps :I agree with your last 2 post dodger !

CLUTCH

People just don't get it.

If that guy had a cast around him like Magic and Bird did for their time: he's titling left and right. Those Cavs were water trash. Seriously, seriously bad.

Bron as best F and Jordan as best G really keeps this all easy for me bc I really don't know who to pick. In a vacuum it's Bron, based on the way it played out: Jordan. Both GOATs.

As good their team was ( bird/magic) , look who they had to fight against as well .....
And MJ was alone vs both of them while he was the best player in the league already !

I watch an interesting video lately and the guy made this connection .
MJ rookie years numbers was as good as the year Kobe won mvp ...
Rookie MJ as good as prime Kobe , food for thoughts .
At 39-40 he still made all nba ....even if he was far far of bing the same player vs all the futur great stars .

I personally don’t understand the competition argument for LeBron faced .
He had crazy competition against him sometimes and other times he had competition he could of beat .

MJ first 6 years had NO chance at all to win anything even if he was the best players in the league for years already .

Difference ?
MJ didn’t fail when he could of .
LeBron failed when he shouldn’t of .

Magic reach 9 finals in 12 years !
Won 5 lost 4 vs goat teams as well .
Magic Lost kareem in his rookie year in the finals 6th game and played center doing like 40 point / 13 rebounds / 7 assist , that is clutch as well , in his rookie year !

I mean you just have like 5 guys that all of them made goat performance multiple times , so what’s left to decide ?
some prefer achievement ( myself) .
Some prefer raw nominal stats
Some prefer one season ( victor vs the warriors ) .
Etc.

A lot of pick to chose from .

Bird could probably fade away from 20 feet and pull a miracle shot out of his ass as well as anyone ever. He had to because he didn't have the athleticism to just get by people like LeBron.

Warriors were the best team ever, and SA was nearly so the couple of years prior. He won when he got to Miami and when he was at Cleveland he never had a chance bc his teammates sucked.

Only losing to Dallas his first year there when their roles were yet to be clearly defined is a blemish on his record. Playing with Wade wasn't exactly easy as it was basically his mini-me. Wade took a back seat year two and they won b2b (barely against SA).

It's all pretty straight-forward imo. He's been the best player in the league since like his second year or so, until Durant may have eclipsed him a couple years back largely due to age. Steph is a totally diff kind of player and Giannis is now up there too (but still more of a post hybrid than what Bron and Durant are).

Comon man , pistons were too old at 30-31 or the jazz at same age as Jordan when MJ beat them but LeBron losing to guys like Duncan at 36 and kid at 37 Aren’t old and goat teams , please .

Put LeBron last 4 years performance vs the SA and Dallas and there is no way he loses .....!

He just freakn play badly or far from his potential and he lost plain and simple .

It’s fine ... magic lost 4 times vs goat team , west lost like 8 times vs goat teams , Kareem as well lost multiple time vs goat team ... bird as well .
LeBron is there as well .
Hell even Kobe, shaq, malone, Payton together !! Lost in 2004?....
If they had won we would of said probable the greatest team ever ....

I think the premise is this :
Should a failing player or team be considered the goat when other teams or players didn’t fail while having at the SAME time the best resume and more accomplishment ?

I think not but some will disagree and it’s fine .

Teams aren't one guy.

You Jordan stans see the game totally different. It's much more simple to you.

Who was the Jazz's 3rd best player? What about their 4th and 5th?

You have no idea the impact that expansion had on the league. Those teams were thin, thin, thin.

Jordan's prior wins were very strong, I've said as much. The league was deeper before, which goes back to the epic debate that transpired itt. But it also was a different era in terms of skill. It's a tough line to draw and I'm not looking to relitigate it with this post.

We all know ball changed sometime in the early to mid 90s tho. You can see it. I don't know what your point is otherwise, outside of denigrating Bron.

Two new teams came into the league in 95 fwiw (Toronto and Vancouver). This is on the heels of 4 new teams coming into the league since 88 (Charlotte, Miami, Minnesota, Orlando).

So yeah, an expansion draft that took players from each team, and an influx in new teams and subsequent draft slots impacted things pretty, pretty greatly. It's the hidden secret to Jordan's second 3peat. He was just starting to come up against deep teams again and Krause 86'd things.

And obviously, having two heavyweights at the top of your roster was a huge advantage during this timeframe. Russ and PG13 would've been a monster too.

lol

yup

but but but but bird had a better ability to find the open man if they didn’t double or triple team him









but but but but bird had a better ability to find the open man if they didn’t double or triple team him

montreal, french canada has spoken.

i’m gonna assume there’s a language barrier/thing going on right now...

the french/canadian translation of “my memory flies away lebron in last 10 years” must be “i want bird over lebron last 10 seconds”

Oh man, I didn't catch the last part until I reread wiper's (sup bro?) quoting.

You said Curry might be on the clutch list? I love him. I really do. Best guy to ever play at the 1 if I could build my team optimally, but... if Bron did this:



You'd be ROASTING him.

Funny the things the mind remembers, or doesn't.

Wow roasting Curry you should be ashamed of yourself lol. With all his late 3's closing teams out in his career so far it's total disrespect to say that. Also i know it was regular season but remember when Curry stuck a 3 pointer from almost half court at the buzzer to beat okc? He catually took step back because he felt he too close then drilled it having westbrook and durant with their mouths open. I think that was the shot that made Durant say why the f am i playing with westbrook. That's the dude!

The sick part is Curry is so good at all times, so sometimes he misses in the end and people think he's not clutch because they like, "dude never misses but he missed one time at the buzzer is he a choker?"

I can't wait for future and Curry to put some respect back on his name at the buzzer lol. Even Lebron knows Curry is a bad man. Early in Curry's career he may have thought oh little man can shoot but at some point it he was like f me this guy is the goatest shooter of all time.

Btw i'm sure i could find a million Lebron missed buzzer's from long range.

Curry is like the last one minute assassin putting the dagger in so he doesn't get alot of opportunities to hit buzzer beaters becasue him and Klay usually shooting foul shots by then.