It is insane, and despite what I said I must admit I don't ignore it completely, it just doesn't move the needle much for me. Like equal second on that 1st team all-nba metric are Kobe and Karl Malone, and I wouldn't rate either of them anywhere near the very top echelon. For me it's far more about how good a peak was (so long as it's maintained for a reasonable amount of time, I'm not chucking Curry in the top 5 just cosa 2016 for example).

Although I do realise as I type this that I'm the complete opposite with Tennis, really rating longevity, in the GOAT argument, so I'm not entirely consistent on the topic haha

Your for federer ?

Nadal actually. If Nadal wins just one more they'll both have 20 but Nadal's will have been over a longer (and tougher thanks to Djok) period of time, and then who knows how much longer he could still stay relevant. Longevity isn't just being good when you're old but being good when you're young. Which I guess I have to admit is an argument in favour of Lebron, to keep this somewhat relevant and not a complete sidetrack.

Well you said it yourself , federer has the most title and longevity .
Pretty hard to go against that imo .
But yeah the race is still open .

2003-2018
2005-2020 (assuming he wins the FO this year).

Is the exact same time period.

Look there's a correct thread for this so I don't really wanna get into it here, but WI '03 - AO '18 < RG '05 - RG '20

Nadal owned federer h2h

Nobody cares.

and he really should have 14 all-NBA, maybe even 15.

in 2006-7 he put up 24.5 PER, 552TS on 31 USG. sure, a little dip from the previous year and a bit off his peak. but the Cavs won 50 games tho. PER is an ok box score aggregate for high usage players but his numbers were 27-6-6.7.

the other year was his second in the league, 04-05 where the cavs missed the playoffs and he put up actually slightly higher numbers.

most underrated player of all time.

proly time to lock this up. Lebron has so owned this argument that people are talking about tennis in here.

Amare stoudemire over LeBron in NBA 1st team in 2007. Must have been a robbery.

Getting 15 All NBA 1st teams and surpassing Kareem in points will pretty much put him neck and neck with Jordan in my book. If Kevin Durant / Curry / Giannis / Harden can get 15 All NBA 1st teams they are easily in the top 5 GOAT players of all time. Those great players physically / talent wise aren't able to.

The only player I've ever seen that mentally looked bored during regular season games and still dominated the competition. Yes Bron is the most underrated player of all time.

Bird has 9 All-NBA 1st teams.
Magic has 9 All-NBA 1st teams.
Shaq has 8 All-NBA 1st teams.

Imagine giving each of those players 15 All-NBA 1st teams. Meaning 6-7 more years of peak dominant play. Even without winning a championship, those players are moving up the all time great list. No doubt about it.

All-NBA 1st teams should matter a lot.

one of the reasons I really liked Lebron so much during his first cavs run was bc he never mailed it in. every single game of the regular season he went all out and had at least one and usually like 3 legit amazing dunks. I am glad he got smarter and learned how to slow it down in the regular season and save himself. but man was he fun to watch back then.

and yes I think Durant is top 5.

If this was actually true, a consensus top 3 player OAT is also the most underrated player OAT and he has Anthony Davis (a top 5 player in the league) as his teammate, the expectation should be for them to win at least 3 titles together.

But knowing Lebron fans they will try to hype up the Laker's one ring in four years and act like it was some kind of miracle that Lebron and AD managed to win one single title together instead of considering it as a disappointment. Which is how i know when Lebron fans say things like "most underrated player of all time" they don't actually believe what they are saying.

Where do you put LeBron all time?

I dont think the best player of all time is expected to win rings at ages 35, 36, 37 but really the only thing stopping him this year is the Rona.

Lebron is also a better person than MJ. We should value that too.

Nah, there is no "and AD" ... it becomes some kind of miracle that LeBron was able to drag those bums/washed players to win 1 ring. You do know that AD never won anything before, right -- alla Bosh & Love?!

Jordan would be a riot to play cards with or any trivial game but outside of that you'd give anything to get away from him.

They were never getting by a healthy Clips team. Kawhi a pure assassin and dat bench.

Jordan would be that ******* that cries about getting bad cards/getting sucked out on/misdealing/etc. I can't think of a worse person to hang out with

I feed off of that misery tho.

That's not a fair analogy. For guys like Magic or Bird 1st team All-NBA level isn't that far off their peak, meaning another ~5 All-NBAs would mean maintaining close to their peak level for much longer than expected from a player.

Lebron isn't really doing that imo. He's a fair bit below his peak now. It's just that his peak was so high that 'a fair bit below his peak' is still All-NBA 1st team level because his peak was GOAT level. It's not really that unexpected that someone that good would still be all-NBA level at this age, MJ was too.

To me that's the only time longevity matters, when it's above and beyond what you would extrapolate from their peak. Like Duncan still being a quite good player at like 38 impresses me, lots of "better" players are completely washed up by then. And yea if Lebron is still All-NBA level at that age, sure, that's pretty amazing. But racking up All-NBA 1st teams before 35 is just par for the course if you're considering GOAT level guys. MJ never missed it past rookie year (in the years he played at least, say, 20 games) either until Wizards days. It's just what those guys do. Doesn't mean they haven't dropped off a bunch.

Well yeah but why don’t we add this simple fact as well , how nba 1st team can be a bit wrong ....
They don’t start in NBA all at the same age .

Bird start at 23 and got hurt on top of that .
Magic start at 20 and hiv .
MJ start at 21 , got hurt second yesr retire twice .
Kareem start at 22 , destroying college instead of the nba .
And all the others of course .

Oh yeah I forgot that Jordan quit twice lol what a quitter