zydrunas was top 3 center in the conference (by virtue of his stats and being voted to ASG by coaches twice)

whereas woolridge was nowhere near top 3 in the conference.. neither was pippen thru 89'


larry hughes was the nba steals leader and 1st team all-defense the year before joining lebron..

in 2007, he averaged 15/4/4 with elite, veteran defense, which was greater than 2nd year pippen's 14/6/4 in 1989.

and yet hughes was 3rd or 4th option behind 2-time all-star zydrunas, whose impact also exceeded young pippen's.


we've already shown itt how lebron's early casts were better relative to their competition:

1) lebron's 2nd option was a 2-time all-star, and therefore a top 3 player at his position in the conference... therefore, he's better than woolridge or 89' pippen relative to his competition, since they were nowhere near top 3 at their position in the conference.

2) in 2007, lebron's 3rd option larry hughes averaged 15/4/4 with elite, veteran defense (1st team all-d in 06'), which is better than 2nd year pippen in 89'.


i think there's a gross misperception regarding just how weak jordan's cast was relative to his competition, and how decent lebron's was relative to his..

however, previous posts itt give proper perspective: rookie Jordan entered the league on a Sixers-level roster in a tough conference like the current West, so 44 ppg on 51% wasn't enough to win 1st Round.. otoh, rookie Lebron entered the league with an all-star Center teammate in perhaps the weakest East ever, so 26 ppg on 45% won ecf and got him to 07' Finals (and 24 ppg on 43% in ecsf).


before they joined lebron, bosh and love were superstar #1 options with better stats than pippen ever had.

furthermore, they were arguably the best pf's in the game - that's a fact - so they were equal relative to their comp as pippen, who was also arguably the best at his position.

so yes - love/bosh compare to pippen - yet they were lebron's 3RD options!!!.. lebron still had wade/kyrie, smh.. and remember - zydrunas was better than any 2nd option jordan had thru 89'

so jordan definately had less help, which is why he scored 7 more ppg in the playoffs thru each players first 3 rings (31 yrs old), with equal assists.. see the linked stats here


how can jordan help rodman get more boards??...

you know that rodman has never been a scorer, so bad logic


im not sure what ur argument is - pippen's "dropoff" is nowhere near love, bosh or wade's
.

larry hughes > 89' pippen

that was the point being made

2 time all-star zydrunas was also > 89' pippen or woolridge before that

lebron's early casts >> jordans



before they joined lebron, bosh and love were superstar #1 options with better stats than pippen ever had.

furthermore, they were arguably the best pf's in the game - that's a fact - so they were equal relative to their comp as pippen, who was also arguably the best at his position.

so yes - love/bosh compare to pippen - yet they were lebron's 3RD options!!!.. lebron still had wade/kyrie, smh.. and remember - zydrunas was better than any 2nd option jordan had thru 89'

so jordan definately had less help, which is why he scored 7 more ppg in the playoffs thru each players first 3 rings (31 yrs old), with equal assists.. see the linked stats here


i think there's a gross misperception regarding just how weak jordan's cast was relative to his competition, and how decent lebron's was relative to his..

however, previous posts itt give proper perspective:

rookie Jordan entered the league on a Sixers-level roster in a tough conference like the current West, so 44 ppg on 51% wasn't enough to win 1st Round.. otoh, rookie Lebron entered the league with an all-star Center teammate in perhaps the weakest East ever, so 26 ppg on 45% won ecf and got him to 07' Finals (and 24 ppg on 43% in ecsf).
.

we are now defending larry "had a website named larryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com" hughes. Twg, take a step back and look at what you're doing

why is he repeating the same posts? Get a grip man

Edit: I think Jordan is the GOAT but defending your argument with Larry **** Hughes is not a good look

Please stop making points.

Did you see any of these people play?

in the year before joining lebron (2005), larry hughes averaged 22/6/5 and was the nba steals leader and 1st team all-defense

hughes was considered a monster pickup at the time - and by virtue of his stats and accolades, was FAR better relative to his competition than 2nd year pippen in 89'

you guys look bad trying to say that 2nd year pippen was equal to a 22/6/5 veteran who was 1st team all-defense.. and don't act all shocked, as if hughes is the first young star that lebron has reduced - its standard in lebron-ball

Except Larry Hughes had one good year, his contract year. Literally that season, his ws/48 is double the rest of his career average and highs. Even so, he was inefficient getting those points at 52% ts% and that was basically high career high when he averaged 48% ts%. Larry never had a good as season even close after that one and even though his d was good, he clearly wasn't that great.

Yes big z made one all star team with Lebron as a teammate and was a solid player but as bron got better, z didn't age that well. Like z wasn't a bad teammate but you're treating him like he was Shaq or something. He was an good center in a very weak era of the NBA. Z basically had stats with more blocks like grant and we know you basically claim grant wasn't that great.

You continue to exaggerate and will be called out for your bs.

.
2nd year Scottie Pippen in 1989:. 14/6/3

Hughes in 2005 (season b4 cavs):. 22/6/5.. 1st team all-defense


again - you guys look bad trying to say that 2nd year pippen was equal to a 22/6/5 veteran who was 1st team all-defense.. and don't act shocked, as if hughes is the first young star that lebron has reduced - its standard in lebron-ball

so lebron's 2nd and 3rd options (2-time all-star zydrunas, hughes) > 2nd year pippen in 89'... lebron's early rosters were simply better than jordan's

and his later rosters were too - before bosh/love joined lebron, they were superstar #1 options with better stats than pippen ever had - they were arguably the best at their position, just like pippen..

yet they were lebron's 3RD options!!!.. lebron still had wade/kyrie, smh.. and remember - zydrunas/hughes were better than any 2nd option jordan had thru 89'

so jordan definately had less help, which is why he scored 7 more ppg in the playoffs thru each players first 3 rings (31 yrs old), with equal assists.. see the linked stats here

lol hes just posting the same words over and over. i think hes broken.

Larry Hughes is a bad example of Lebron reduction. Larry was a lazy **** who had a career year to get paid and then took the rest of his career off. He didn't magically get better when he left Cleveland. He just was never that good. I love how you ignore larry's inefficiency when you state his stats as you continue to paint only half an accurate picture.

Most of your examples of Lebron reducing his teammates stats happen when they go from definitive first options to second or third on his team. It's a wonder why pippen stats get slightly better when Jordan leaves. Can we conclude MJ was holding pippen down? Or that when MJ retires, both bj and grant get voted to the all star team. What's your rationale to those things? My thoughts are mjs usage got shared and likely they got voted in due to the bulls dynasty and not their dominance but again like you love to point things out of context I should have.

He hasn't kept kyrie down and wades stats only really started to fall significantly as he aged and was hurt for most of one season. Bosh/love have good stats as third options on a team.

lebron is so bad that he reduced wade and bosh to 2 titles in 4 years. bosh had never even made the playoffs. and really the final year shouldnt really count bc wade was not the same player.

yes lebron botched the initial finals vs mavs. it should be 3 in 4 years and that loss was on lebron. ofc, he was animal in the conf finals. and in the next 2 title years he was at the goat level. esp in games 6 and 7 of the conf finals and finals.

irving and love had never made the playoffs either. they made 3 titles and beat a 72 win team.

all of his words are bullsht. the above are the facts. blame lebron for the mavs series. does 2016 make up for it? at least some? lol at denigrating the rest of his career tho. and lol at the idiotic idea that he brought his teammates down when they won far more than any other seasons.

you guys are something else with your excuses

here's the facts: lebron got a 22/6/5, 1st team all-nba defender to mold into a superstar, and he failed

otoh, jordan got a scrawny, weak-minded, 7 ppg rookie, and succeeded in molding him in his own image as a superstar, 2-way player

again, quit with the sad excuses.. lebron simply reduces the game of good players - we see it time and again


exactly - lebron enjoyed the benefit of a top 3 center in the conference (all-star), so his 2nd option was FAR better relative to his competition than pippen in 1989, who was a nobody on the totem pole of eastern conference sf's..

infact, lebron's THIRD option in the 06' and 07' seasons was veteran larry hughes - his 22/6/5 and 1st team all-defense in 2005 (the year before joining lebron) showed that he was far better relative to his competition than 2nd year pippen, just like all-star zydrunas.


zydrunas was a highly skilled center who was frequently given the ball to create offense, while also being a good rim protector..

otoh, horace grant was a play-finishing big that virtually every team has - no one thought for a nano-second to give him the ball to create offense

and gimme a break with the whole "horace only averaged 3 less points and 1 less block" argument


did you see 89' pippen play?.. he was aids

lebron's early rosters were superior to jordan's by virtue of his 2nd option being a 2-time all-star, and his 3rd option was a 22/6/5, 1st-team, all-nba defender.. that's way better than 2nd year pippen in 89', who was a nobody

lebron's later rosters were also better - before bosh/love joined lebron, they were superstar #1 options with better stats than pippen ever had - they were arguably the best at their position, just like pippen..

yet they were lebron's 3RD options!!!.. lebron still had wade/kyrie, smh.. and remember - zydrunas/hughes were better than any 2nd option jordan had thru 89'

so jordan definately had less help, which is why he scored 7 more ppg in the playoffs thru each players first 3 rings (31 yrs old), with equal assists.. see the linked stats here


there's a gross misperception regarding just how weak jordan's cast was relative to his competition, and how decent lebron's was relative to his..

however, previous posts itt give proper perspective:

rookie Jordan entered the league on a Sixers-level roster in a tough conference like the current West, so 44 ppg on 51% wasn't enough to win 1st Round.. otoh, rookie Lebron entered the league with an all-star Center teammate in perhaps the weakest East ever, so 25 ppg on 45% won ecf (and 24 ppg on 43% in ecsf).
.

heres a tip twog

how to argue michael : double 3peat with the highest peak over a long period of time.

how easy was that?

The facts are you again take the outlier year and some how present it as the actual story.

Larry Hughes averaged 14 ppg for his career and 14.3 ppg for the Cavs but at 48% TS%. He wasn't that good. Pippen was a top pick out of HS and eventually became good. If Larry was great after his Cavs stay or even had a second "great" season you may have a point but you keep pointing out to his one "good" season and using it as evidence that he was good. You're completely full of **** and always have been.

Grant was a 1 time all-star, 4 time all-d 2nd team. Z was a 2 time all-star and only 1 of them was when Lebron was in the league.

Z was a solid player. So what, what's your point here. Lebrons second best player was solid, wow. Congrats.

Yeah imagine if Jordan got a young Larry Hughes instead of a scrawny loser like Scottie. Prob would have 10 rings, and Scottie would've been bagging groceries in a few years.

LeBron just wasn't good enough to mold a lock future HoFer in Hughes and ruined his career.

i've said something like that before:

thru 14 seasons, jordan has 6 rings to lebron's 3, while achieving higher PER and ws/48 in rs, po, and finals


there are many ways to argue jordan over lebron.. here's one:

in 1996 & 1998, jordan won mvp over prime shaq and dunked on him... he also dominated kobe in the 98' all-star game (scoring on him 5 times), and dunked the first time kobe ever guarded him..

during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998, Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot that lebron missed in 13' Finals, (the shot is shown here)... Then he dominated the OT for the win, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here.. pippen didnt play that game.. jordan also won and dominated the 2nd meeting that season.. in the playoffs, Jordan won the Finals against the Jazz, who had destroyed Duncan/Popovich's Spurs in 2nd Round (Spurs won 56 games in RS).

against garnett, Jordan schooled him in the 1998 all-star game (shown here) and during the regular season (shown here, here and here).. furthermore, the only time MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 points on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here

so as you can see, 35-year old jordan dominated all-stars shaq, kobe, duncan, and garnett in 1998, who are the 4 best players that lebron ever played against.. but jordan also faced magic, kareem, bird, and hakeem - so jordan faced more all-time greats.. you could add kawhi and durant, and i'd counter with dr. j, moses, or karl m, or barkely, dr etc

you dont need to do all these strawmans and be half truthful with half facts for MJ>LBJ.

All you have to do is 2 x 3peats and higher peak. thats all you have to do. you literally dont need to spew so much garbage.

Picking All-Star games and random regular season game to prove MJ's GOATness is amazing.

LOL Using all-star game as evidence. KG/Kobe were not in their primes; I don't think Ducan was either.

There are a ton of all-time greats in the current era and previous era. You can't be ****ing serious.

Duncan
KG
Shaq
Kobe
Wade
Cp3
Durant
Curry
Dirk

Are all considered at worst top 40 all-time players.

Then you have other greats in this era.

6 of those guys are likely to be considered top 20 players all time.

larry hughes was considered a star pickup for the cavs in 2006, just like ANY 22/6/5, 1st team defender would be..

ultimately, lebron's early rosters were superior to jordan's by virtue of his 2nd option being a 2-time all-star (zydrunas), and his 3rd option was a 22/6/5, 1st-team, all-nba defender.. that's far better than 2nd year pippen in 89', who was a nobody

lebron's later rosters were also better - before bosh/love joined lebron, they were superstar #1 options with better stats than pippen ever had - they were arguably the best at their position, just like pippen..

yet they were lebron's 3RD options!!!.. lebron still had wade/kyrie, smh.. and remember - zydrunas/hughes were better than any 2nd option jordan had thru 89'

so jordan definately had less help, which is why he scored 7 more ppg in the playoffs thru each players first 3 rings (31 yrs old), with equal assists.. see the linked stats here

You keep saying his 3rd option was this. His 3rd option averaged 14/3/3 on 48% TS%. Again, YOU KEEP PICKING AN OUTLIER YEAR as evidence of Larry Hughes actual stats. Are you ******ed?

Yes before 89 maybe Lebron had better teams earlier in his career. But Jordan's CASTS were pretty damn amazing when they won 6 titles in his 7 years in the playoffs.

You again ignore anything but ppg with your points. Lebron averaged more rebounds and likely did other things well. You don't have to hide things to make your point, we've been over this a BUNCH of times. You're really, really dumb.

seriously, the thread would be better if all the pro-jordan posts were replaced with ITSTHEONLYARGUMENTINEEDSHAWN.JPG

Chris bosh: four time all star and had top five per season before joining Lebron
Dwade: five time all star, finals MVP and had top five per season before joining Lebron
Larry Hughes: put up 22/6/5 and made first team all defense and led league in steals season before joining Lebron
Kevin love: three time all star and had top five per season before joining Lebron
Kyrie: two time all star, including all star game MVP season before joining Lebron

Scottie pippen: walked on at the NAIA powerhouse University of central Arkansas before joining MJ

Pippen was a rookie, what's your point here. The bulls were able to draft and develop talented players. Lebron joined some. Please don't include Larry Hughes as part of this argument.

Wade and kyries stats are fine in the Lebron era. Love and bosh stats are fine for third options and all are all stars in their years with bron.

Lebron turns great players into 3 and d role players. MJ turns walk ons at central Arkansas into all time greats.