Also 3.5 rating for Bill Russell out of a 9 team league isn't great. Just above league average.

fallguy,
Do you understand that team assists are heavily correlated with points? And that the best teams tend to score a lot of points? Basketball games are won by outscoring the opponent.

Why are you arguing about team assists now rather than assisted fg%? You spent hundreds, if not thousands of posts arguing that assisted fg% is the key to winning basketball.

When I showed that assisted fg% is negatively correlated to team wins in some seasons, and very very minimally correlated in others, you suddenly started arguing about team assists (which are heavily correlated with points, as explained above) instead. Why is that fallguy?

fallguy,
Here is my post explaining what a statistical correlation is, if you have never heard of that concept before and therefore do not understand why it’s important. Please let us know if you have any questions about extremely rudimentary statistical methodology.

No one said anything about whether assists are correlated with regular season wins - that's a topic that you introduced because you couldn't refute the argument being made that assists were correlated with the best basketball (dynasties), something we proved itt by looking at all the dynasties.

Specifically, every "dynasty" in history was correlated with team assists by virtue of having #1 assist capability and a high assist ranking over the long-term... Since Lebron, Luka and other low-assisted scorers cannot produce this caliber of team assists, they cannot produce dynasties and are inferior to the best players from higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did).

Finally, you begged me to post the team assist ranks for high-assisted 1st options after I posted it for the low-assisted ones, yet you won't show your work that you claim to have performed regarding the correlation between team assists or team assisted rate and regular season wins.. I showed my work to prove that assists were correlated with the best basketball (dynasties), so you should post your work to prove that assists aren't necessarily correlated with regular season wins in general.. My calculations and yours would be interesting insight in my view.. Having the stats linked to the source data would be great too, like I did.. Thanks in advance.





Who cares about marginal teams or Lebron winning 1 or 2 more games - Lebron is being compared to the best, so it's all about what it takes to play the BEST basketball (dynasties)... No one said that a team with 15th assist ranking will win more games than the 20th assist team - that's junior high logic and I would never say that .. The way that dynastic ball movement is shown statistically is over the long-term, such as a high average assist ranking over a career (which all the dynasty 1st options have, while the low-assisted ball-dominators don't).

Russell's Celtics had #1 assist capability by virtue of being #1 in 59' and 63'.

#1 assist capability is a hallmark of every dynasty, along with a high assist ranking over the long-term, and a reputation for historic ball movement.. Since Luka, Lebron, and all low-assisted scorers can't produce this caliber of team assists, they can't produce dynasties and are inferior to the best players from higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did)
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Wow guys, I just found out that Lebron is "taking a break" wink wink... Surely fraud is in the air, or we made him retire... He finally opened up this thread for the first time and the first thing he read was:

"#1 assist capability is a hallmark of every dynasty, along with a high assist ranking over the long-term, and a reputation for historic ball movement.. Since Luka, Lebron, and all low-assisted scorers can't produce this caliber of team assists, they can't produce dynasties and are inferior to the best players from higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did)."

And he quit just like that... He realized that his skillset plays futilely on the NBA level in the sense that it cannot produce the best basketball (dynasty).. I'm sorry guys - I didn't mean to make your hero quit.

Thread Cliffs

Every dynasty had historic ball movement like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls, but guys like Luka, Lebron, and other low-assisted scorers can't play that way as evidenced by their significantly lower team assist levels than dynasties, and the fact that there's never been a ball-dominator achieve a high ball movement team like we see from dynasties.. It's impossible to great ball movement when your low-assisted skillset of many unassisted buckets leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles and lowers their assists.. Since low-assisted scorers cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties), they're inferior to the best players of higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did).

Revised Thread Cliffs

Every dynasty had historic ball movement like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls, but guys like Luka, Lebron, and other low-assisted scorers can't play that way as evidenced by their significantly lower team assist levels than dynasties, and the fact that there's never been a ball-dominator achieve a high ball movement team like we see from dynasties.. Rather than letting the ball move, ball-dominators have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles and lowers their assists.. Since these low-assisted scorers cannot produce the ball movement needed for the best basketball (dynasties), they're inferior to the best players of higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did).

This is fun. Let’s try another angle and see what comes out.

I’m going to list two lineups. Of the two, which one would perform relatively better with a high ball-movement offense, giving every player on the floor a roughly equal opportunity to score (thereby increasing assist rate):

Team 1
LeBron James
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Boobie Gibson
Devin Brown
Drew Gooden

Team 2
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Draymond Green
Andre Iguodala
Klay Thompson

Consider this the world’s easiest basketball IQ test. Remember, the question is which team would have greater benefit from high ball movement within their offense. Simply type ‘1’ or ‘2’. You lose points for walls of text that obfuscate and have nothing to do with the question asked.

Now it's "assist capacity".

Amazing.

Except the Spurs don't. You literally posted the stats that during their 4 chips in 8 year span they topped out at 8th best.

And no, don't include the 1 chip in 7 year span as part of it. In fact you'd argue that when they went from a team with low assists to a team with high assists they actually went to winning a lot to (using your words) mainly losing.

Teams with the best and most balanced roster construction, and a good coach who employs a high ball-movement offense will have the highest “assist capacity”.

Teams with one elite offensive player and then other weaker players, or even other solid offensive role players, would have lower “assist capacity”, and it would benefit them far more to have the ball in the hands of the elite player.

fallguy knows the truth. He is converging on the exact same point we have been making with his own arguments. He is just tip-toeing and tap dancing around saying it because he doesn’t have the integrity to admit he was wrong that a statistic that is negatively correlated with wins isn’t actually the key to winning basketball. He’s having a panic attack because of how dumb he looks. To be fair, this has been a LOT of time for any one person to spend looking dumb on the internet. I think we’d all be having a melt down if we looked that dumb for that long. And for fallguy, it’s now documented for everyone to see forever. Years of dumb, all in one place.

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PROVEN BASKETBALL THEOREM

The best basketball (dynasties) = great ball movement

High scoring, low-assisted players = cannot produce great ball movement


CONCLUSION: among high scorers, the best low-assisted players < the best high-assisted players, since low-assisted players cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties)

We know that low-assisted scorers like Luka or Lebron cannot produce great ball movement like the Spurs and Warriors because they never have, and their teams have much lower average assist ranking over the long-term than dynasties.. There's also the mathematical reality of their high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles and lowers their assists, thereby preventing a high assist team.

Sorry you need to stop using the Spurs in your posts based on information you provided previously.

They were 11th over the course of Duncan's career, which is much better than ball-dominators, and they were also 1st in 13' and 14', which laid the foundation for the Warriors... So they had a reputation for historic ball movement, higher assist rankings over the long term than ball-dominators, and #1 assist capability.. These things are required for the best basketball (dynasties).

First of all, an equal-opportunity system gives everyone equal opportunity to score AND assist... The main issue with Lebron's game is the high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which reduces their assists and prevents a high-assist team.

Secondly, the bolded is wrong.. A ball movement system that gives everyone equal opportunity to score would NOT increase everyone's assisted rate, since an increase in assisted rate (spot-ups) decreases their time with the ball... Accordingly, a ball movement system that gave everyone equal opportunity would increase some players' assisted rate and decrease others.

So everything about your question is wrong and a fundamental misunderstanding of things

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^^^ This lineup cannot run a ball movement system because of the presence of a high-scorer with a low-assisted rate (ball-dominator), which means many unassisted buckets that literally kills ball movement - the high volume of unassisted buckets make teammates stand around in spot-up roles, which lowers their assists and prevents a high-assist team.

Ultimately, the biggest thing that makes this lineup not conducive for ball movement is Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets (ball-dominant skillset).





If we switch Curry to Lebron, then this team cannot run a ball movement system because of Lebron's high-volume of unassisted buckets that lower teammates' assists and prevents a high-assist team..

How would the Warriors maintain their goat assist ranking if Lebron lowers Durant and Draymond's assists like he does every other starter that he ever played with?? (stats here).

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COMPARING THE EASTERN RUNS OF 01' IVERSON, 07' LEBRON AND 89' JORDAN

BURDEN








COMP










CAST

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n50O5nJ6lcM
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I assume you are congratulating Jordan for being so poor during the regular season his team had to face better teams in the playoffs because they finished with a worse seed.

Weird brag.

11th isn't great for a good team in any stat. You do realise that yeah?

You realise winning 1 championship out of 7 years isn't great, yeah?

Facts are, when the Spurs were a dominate team they were a low assist team.

It's okay.

It's just proving everything you think is wrong.

FG - All great dynasties are high assist teams.

Well except the Spurs...

Oh, and the Celtics...

Oh, and the Pistons when they won 2 chips, 1 other finals appearance and two other Conference Finals in a 5 year span... checks notes... were constantly finishing in the bottom half of the league in total assists.

SGA has an assisted rate of 27%
Tatum has an assisted rate of 38%

Checks notes. Two teams favourite to win the Championship.

Nope, we clearly established that as a point forward, LeBron’s assisted rate is normal. Not that it matters because assisted rate is minimally correlated with wins, or even negatively correlated in some seasons. As fidstar and I have conclusively proven with data but you are incapable of understanding because you have a fundamental inability to understand even the most basic statistical concepts. His assisted rate is within a couple % of Kobe Bryant, a shooting guard.

I didn’t say it would increase everyone’s assisted rate. I said it would increase assist rate. For the team. Obviously. Can you read?

Player A holds the ball, dribbles, and shoots. Scores a field goal.

Players A, B, C, D, and E play in a high ball movement motion offense. Pass the ball multiple times within this offensive system until someone gets an efficient scoring opportunity. One of the players receives a pass and scores.

Which system gives more assists fallguy?

Wrong. An unsurprising statement, however, coming from the person with the poorest understanding of team basketball that I’ve ever seen.

Wrong. We’ve established that LeBron’s assisted rate is normal or even high for a point forward (not that it matters, because again, assisted fg% is minimally correlated, or even negatively correlated at times, with wins. This is statistical fact.)

One, I did not ask you to switch any players. I asked you to reply 1 or 2 and you failed. You lose points.

Two, you would not replace Steph, a 6’2” guard that is probably the greatest off-ball jump shooter of all time, with LeBron, a 6’8” hybrid point forward. The fact that you think this is good roster construction proves you don’t know anything about team basketball. You’d replace Durant or Dray with LeBron to maintain similar team structure.

Three, you fail again to understand that a great player like LeBron would easily integrate into a hybrid motion offense like the Warriors. This is how he won 3 rings in 5 years with different teams (Miami and Cleveland). Because he is extremely versatile and can easily adapt to probably any system. The fact that he has won with three different teams and systems proves this. Jordan and Kobe were only capable of winning in one system.

Your last statement is a complete misunderstanding of basketball and mathematics: every time LeBron has joined a new team their team assist rate has went up. Every time LeBron has left a team their team assist rate has gone down.

Proof here
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...ostcount=22534

If you’re still trying to understand why a high assist playmaker being on the court reduces the average assists of the other four players (while increasing the overall team assists; which you claimed was the new “most important” stat for winning basketball. But I’m sure you will back out of that now because you are a dishonest weasel troll that craves Internet forum attention for some weird reason) then I cannot help you.

Since this contradicts fallguy’s narrative, I believe that means these teams don’t count. In fact, he will probably say it means these teams were bad.

This is, unfortunately, because he is a complete ****ing lunatic.

I think I'll keep this thread open so it stays on the front page for all to gander at the village idiot.



Disclaimer: I'm not calling anyone a village idiot, it's just a common old school saying.