Yo, I was saying FOR QUANTITY LeBron is GOAT-ish. In my opinion for quantity only and he is clearly not GOAT player, only a GOAT statistics chart.

It's very telling that all the people who are the Lebron or 'either' side respect both players, but all the people clearly on the Jordan side have to resort to making up an endless stream of insults and name calling towards LeBron. It's clear which side the adults are on.

What? Both sides are terrible. Both think that their side is the only one making good posts.

FWIW I think the boss is on the MJ side (iirc).

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Statistical facts about Lebron's career


* #1 all-time in turnovers, missed shots and top 5 in missed FT's

* Inferior to Jordan at PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, TO's, jumpshooting efficiency, FT efficiency, post, off-ball, clutch efficiency, game-winner efficiency, efficiency per possession (ortg), Finals win %, Playoff win %, regular season win %, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48

* 17 of 21 seasons were either lottery, 1st Round loss, sweep loss, record loss, upset loss or locked up in a loss

* 3 losses with 2 all-star teammates (11',14', 17') and 4 losses with favored talent/preseason favorites (11', 14', 15', 21')

* Less APG in playoffs than Jordan thru half their chips (pre-curry era)

* Zero all-defense for latter half of chips (no all-defense in his 30's/Curry era)

* Turns teammates into spot-up shooter (lowers their assists and increases their assisted rate)

* Zero young player development (zero young players increased from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch)

* Low assist teams

* Zero #1 offenses

* Worst championship record ever - lottery record on championship level with every cast (low team ceiling, aka low chemistry "Bron-ball)"

* Never carried weak help over top teams, aka never won a series vs top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from sidekick (zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades)

* 16 on 39% thru 3 games of 13' Finals and 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6, so it was another 2011 choke but Ray Allen forced Game 7.. Heat didn't win with Lebron on floor in that series (zero plus minus and negative net rating for Lebron)

* Always had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level)
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Isn't Kobe's career-high PER like 28?

If we're gonna argue with PER, let's do it wrt Kobe vs. LeBron.

LeBron's had eight season over 28, fwiw. Only five under 25 -- three of which were the last three seasons.

Kobe was under 25 all but three seasons

Kobe is 29th in career PER, behind Chris Paul, Kawhi Leonard, James Harden, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Yao Ming, etc

Exhibit 349 of TWOG trying to have it both ways.

LeBron is a bum for underachieving with Wade, who was better than Kobe, yet Kobe is the 2nd best player of all time.

LOL.

1 more L would be a sweep, and 12 straight vs the nugz. goat oat (joker, that is)

Kobe couldn't do anything with a peak 27 year old Dwight Howard, but LeBron takes 34 year old corpse Howard to a championship.

How many MVPs and titles would it take for Jokic to become the GOAT? I imagine he'll be met with a lot of resistance, as his game is just not very appealing or marketable.

yeah he'd prob need ~5/5 for a lot of ppl to even consider him, but i doubt he'll end up with more than 2-3 rangz. will be interesting to see how many mvps he finishes with, should be on 4 rn, but they gave one to embuust bc he wouldn't stop whining for it

jokic doesn't give a **** about being goat. he prefers horses.

Letting voted-for awards affect your own opinion of the GOAT seems like a massive leak, and 'there's literally no amount' if you're talking about swaying the general public away from MJ

When it comes to being a GOAT, multiple MVPs and finals MVPs are pretty much a necessary qualification. Jordan's claim is largely based on his 6 finals MVPs (and well supported by 5 regular season MVPs).

One thing I am struggling to understand - when the point is made that Jordan has more career team success and rings it’s met with LOL RANGZ.

But when people talk about what it would take for Jokic to be GOAT he needs…. more rings?

A four-peat by Jokic would qualify him for GOAT

Jordan became goat when he achieved a substantive body of work that was clearly superior to anything Magic or Bird had done (3-peat) - that's when everyone said he was GOAT.

Similarly, a substantive body of work that is superior to anything Jordan did would qualify Jokic for GOAT, so a 4-peat would qualify just like a 3-peat qualified Jordan.

Btw, we're obviously talking post civil-rights and 3-pointer basketball here, aka modern era.. Otherwise, we have to start splitting hairs on how many Bruce Bowen rings someone has (5th option rings... "just a defender" rings).

#weouthere

Yep, perfect example

People are surmising what he would need to do in order to get into the conversation, so it isn’t all that confusing. He doesn’t need to hit 5 or 6, but he needs a couple more than what he has and many more years of this level of play.

This isn’t unreasonable or hard to understand. LeBron went to 9 finals in 10 seasons, so Jokic is still on the front half of the body of work he needs to put together imo.

First time in thread- apologies if this has already been addressed.

If you look at each individual season and take the major advanced metrics (PER, W/S, W/S p 48, VORP, BPM) and look at each players aggregate ranking league-wide in those metrics, Kareem has more seasons at #1 than any other player. All time Jordan has the second most, Lebron the third, Wilt is fourth, and Larry/Jokic are fifth. Other notable players such as Magic, Kobe, and Russell have 0 seasons leading the league. Shaq has one season which would put him in a muti-way tie somewhere around twentieth.

How much impact should these stats have when determining who the true GOAT is?

I said Wade was better when Kobe was past his prime in 2010 and thereafter

I very clearly said that in all the posts

And yes, it means literally nothing for Lebron to start making multiple Finals after teaming up with the next-best player in the league (Wade), or putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team - it's amazing that Lebron gets credit for winning the conference after that

Winning a conference means nothing compared to winning the league... especially a conference where the top 3 players were put on 1 team... So Finals appearances are simply not goat arguments compared winning the Finals.

Kareem, Lebron and others have 1 or 2 seasons of league-best individual production rates or mvp WHILE WINNING THE TITLE, while Jordan has 6 seasons of league-best individual & team dominance.. He's the only guy with a tenure of league-best individual and team dominance.

Accordingly, no one combined individual dominance with team success like Jordan... In addition to being the only player with a tenure of league-best individual & team dominance, Jordan was the only guy that won titles as scoring champ, except peak Shaq (00') and peak Kareem (71') - so their peak burden to win rings was Jordan's standard burden to win rings.

Furthermore, Jordan was the only player good enough carry the league's biggest burden while maintaining championship brand of ball (winning titles as usage leader - unprecedented).

Finally, Jordan is the only player that was forced to consistently defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Everyone else in history had teammates lead the team in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan averaged 10-30 mote than teammates in evety SERIES... So no one defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load) like MJ... Everyone needed great scoring help except the GOAT.