Lebron has many seasons and series of shooting like dog crap at 3+ attempts, while MJ has none - MJ always shot well at today's volumes, while Lebron is frequently brick city at 3+ attempts

Furthermore, MJ is the goat 2-point jumpshbooter...

Ultimately, the difference is that Lebron is robotic with no bag and stone hands (no touch), while guys like MJ, Kobe, Curry or Bird could shoot off-the-cuff, ad-hoc jumpers and LIVE of jumpshooting every game.. with FEATHERY touch

so it's night and day

They were considered "jumpshooters" and Lebron is not.

Like I said, you're artificially cherry-picking specific criteria that no one else can meet because having an "equally-scoring partner" at any point in your career automatically disqualifies you from GOAT contention.

That's not how basketball actually works you demented lunatic.

^^^ that's the tic toc

Watching TWOG furiously repeat himself like an angry child every time LeBron does something great is the reason I come back to this thread.

if you need an all-time scorer as a teammate to lead the team in scoring for an entire playoff run, then you aren't anywhere near as good as someone that can completely carry the scoring load and therefore needs less help...

Someone that can produce an all-time team and dynasty with just Klay is superior to someone that needs franchise players and elite producers like Wade, AD or Kyrie.... plus additional franchise players and all-stars at THIRD option

this is intuitive - if you need more help, than you're inferior at basketball... the best ball-dominators need more help, so their inferior to the best expert jumpshooters that needed a lot less help

See you've touched on one of the biggest misconceptions of Lebron's career

Notice how he only "dominates" bad teams... When the Lakers play the Bucks, Celtics, Nuggets or anyone good, it's AD-ball... Look it up - it's only Lebron-ball against the bad teams and it's AD-ball against the top teams.. This was the case in the 2020 playoffs and for Lebron's entire career because he NEVER won a series vs top teams by completely carrying the load - he never beat top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick... So against the top teams, he needs a ton of help and someone else to dominate

story of his career - bron-ball vs bad teams and but against good teams, he needs someone else to dominate too

It's why I drop by here. It's fun.


Ban fallguy and there is no more pinata.

That's right I'm busting you guys up

Look what I just did to SABR regarding his Havlicek lie - he said that Havlicek was the leading scorer on many title teams and he was only the leading scorer for 2 titles - he was only the leading scorer in regular season OR playoffs for 2 titles.. Every other time a teammate led the scoring.

So I'm ruining your "santa-like" delusions of the game.. There's no santa - Lebron is a fraud that never learned how to win (chemistry, organic) - he only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning, all-star team strategy)... and still mostly loses regardless of cast!!!... the biggest fraud in sports history

All time starting 5

TWOG,

You didn't answer. Who's better, Havlicek or LeBron?

Havlicek only led his team in scoring for the regular season of 2 titles

Ditto playoffs.. He only led his team in playoff scoring for 2 titles

Ditto Finals.. He only led his team in Finals scoring for 2 titles.

Lebron did it for 3, so that's a strong indication that he's better

But it's interesting because the gap between Havlicek and Lebron is MUCH closer than you think for all the reasons that already stated, aka Lebron's skillset yields bad chemistry and weak teams that need a ton of help - he isn't capable of having a team that mostly wins titles for any stretch of time.. Bron-ball cannot have all-time teams regardless of cast and mostly loses regardless of cast.. it's just a horrific brand of ball (big man ball-dominance) that requires ridiculous help and still mostly lose regardless of cast.. his teams can never reach all-time level..

The criteria was leading your team in scoring while winning a title - Havlicek did that twice and MJ did it 6 times.

There's no cherry-picking - you were simply wrong in thinking that Havlicek led the team in scoring for most of their titles - he didn't and it's because he had a bunch of equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention, so he never had to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load) like MJ did for every chip.. MJ wasn't just the scoring leader for every chip - he carried the scoring load for every chip (defeated max defensive attention).

Jordan won 6 chips while facing the kind of defensive attention that Lebron faced in 2007 or 2015 Finals - the only difference is that Jordan was good enough at basketball to fit with spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Hughes, so he would've gotten at least 15.7 on bad efficiency from Hughes, which was enough to win the 96' and 98' Finals... 19 on 42% from a sidekick was enough for MJ to win 6 (6/6)

Leading your team in scoring is important but there's another level that that entails CARRYING the scoring load for playoffs and Finals (defeating max defensive attention), which is rare.. Carrying the scoring load allows a player to win with less help.

Kobe and Bird carried the scoring load for their 84', 09' and 10' chips, while Lebron never did for any chip

Bird actually had one of the goat upsets when he carried the Celtics to upset win over the super-team Lakers in 84'.. It might be the goat chip.. Lebron had an "upset" in 2016 but a teammate matched his scoring, so he didn't defeat max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).. The Cavs were also the preseason favorite by virtue of having 3 franchise players compared to 1 for the Warriors.

So basically, sort by PPG again. That's the extent of your busto analysis.

The only way to be the GOAT is through PPG.

Meanwhile if you and another player score the same PPG but you're also the primary facilitator or defender, well that doesn't matter because only PPG matters. That's idiotic.

LeBron literally led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.

But yeah Kyrie was his equal because only PPG matters. LOL you're a mental midget.

3 franchise players vs 1, LMAO.

Curry, Klay, and Draymond were all drafted by the same team, so categorically they could never all be franchise players because by definition only 1 can be. Jesus this is pathetic even by your standards.

PPG is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed

Only MJ didn't need great scoring help

And you keep saying sort by PPG but MJ was the best defender and led his team in assists most years.. What should we sort by? MJ wins based on any criteria

It's like you prefer losing or something.. Sort by PPG... Sort by winning... Sort by least help... Sort by whatever... MJ always comes out on top

So Joel Embiid is better than Nikola Jokic?

Klay just isn't a franchise player or elite producer regardless of who drafted him.. ditto Draymond

Otoh, guys like Wade, AD, Kyrie, Love and Bosh were all elite producers and franchise players

That's why the Cavs were preseason favorites in 2015 and 2016 - it's because they had a "big 3" of franchise players, while the Warriors only had 1 franchise players

Bron-ball simply underachieved the favored talent expectation (preseason favorite) by having weak regular season records and therefore falling to underdog... There's no way the 16' or 17' Finals should've been considered a mismatch - it was supposed to be a clash of titans but bron-ball simply underachieves favored talent, so the Cavs quickly fell to underdog once the season started and everyone saw how crappy bron-ball was again

it's a big part of the fraud to pretend that Lebron has a bad team (bad regular season record) so then when he eventually wins once in a rare while, it's called a big upset and overrated... but the reality is that lebron produces weak teams - but even bad teams eventually win one, so his wins get overrated

if he wins a title like Jokic did, then it will be a debate

if he CARRIES the scoring load (defeats max defensive attention) then that would put him over Jokic because Jokic had Murray getting him 26 ppg for that playoff run - so Jokic had equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention and therefore never defeated max defensive attention

That's not the ****ing point, moron.

By your criteria Cade Cunningham is a franchise player, but Devin Booker isn't.

Love and Irving were "franchise players" on lottery teams. Someone has to be the best player on a garbage team.

Leading Love by 1 RPG or steals by 0.4 SPG

these are statistical anomalies that mean nothing - leading all players in the 5 categories for 1 series is a small footnote, not a goat achievement.

He never carried any category, particularly the scoring - so he never defeated max defensive attention like MJ did (never carried scoring load)..

Jordan won 6 chips while facing the kind of defensive attention that Lebron faced in 2007 or 2015 Finals - the only difference is that Jordan was good enough at basketball to fit with spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Hughes, so he would've gotten at least 15.7 on bad efficiency from Hughes, which was enough to win the 96' and 98' Finals... 19 on 42% from a sidekick was enough for MJ to win 6 (6/6)

Ultimately, the Cavs were the preseason favorite in 2016 because they had more on-paper talent - 3 franchise players on 1 team that included a sidekick that outplays Curry.. Those Cavs were completely stacked yet Lebron couldn't even win 60 games or avoid record defeat... nowhere near goat caliber

TWOG - LeBron James leading both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the finals is a footnote, not a GOAT achievement.

Yeah we're done here. I rest my case.

Teams with LeBron were favored primarily bc they had LeBron.

A big reason for that was seeing how well he did with his first trash Cavs team. Never has a single player carried such a mediocre team to 60+ wins. (And they won 66!)

I just looked, Hakeem's max was 58 btw.

Apparently Bird shot 44% from three during his career in games where he had 5+ attempts (RS & PO) and it's 46% if we only include his prime before injury in 89'

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SI6VjYqpRBM&t=08m27s


So not surprisingly, Bird's shot even better than MJ when he had above bailout volume