nah it's the opposite. It's always "rangz, nothing else matters" except of course when Bill Russel is mentioned and then all of the sudden that lazy argument goes right out the window.

Enlarge this gif if needed - pippen hacks Hubert so that Hubert's hand/wrist is knocked to the left and it sends the shot wayward as well:

HOF announcer Hubie Brown said it was a clear-cut hack right after it happened on live TV:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3FbvWSZQkY&t=01m28s


So you're just lying again to continue the fraudulent Lebron goat case - but you're caught red-handed this time because the video is clear.. it's sad - you're brainwashed or blind!!




Pippen was outplayed by Ewing in the 94' ECSF and averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of that series - that's why Phil instinctively went away from Pippen in crunch-time and it worked - great move by Phil to avoid Pippen in the clutch.. It's too bad he couldn't avoid Pippen for the rest of the 4th as well (3.0 on 20%).

And the point about the 89' ECF is that Jordan lost in 6 games because Pippen literally missed game 6 and basically missed Game 5 too... 10 points from Pippen in these games or the "migraine" game the following year would've allowed MJ to beat the Pistons in 89' and 90'... So the point is that Jordan didn't need anything to beat the Pistons and when he finally started winning from 91-98', he was basically getting these 10 points or total garbage from Pippen - this includes 19 on 42% for his Finals career, or 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, or 16 on 40% in multiple critical 7-game series and Finals, or worst-ever shooting splits for the 93' run and 96-98' runs.

So Jordan never had a good cast - the 91' cast was exactly the same as the 89' cast except Pippen/BJ increased by 4 ppg each - neither contributed anymore in the clutch - it was still all MJ every game... That's why the PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP figures and "gap analysis" performed earlier shows that Jordan had 6 carry-job rings similar to Dirk or Hakeem's one-off carry-jobs.




due to superior developed chemistry, not superior talent

Lebron's team had better supporting talent such as franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option, but Jordan's team would win more without him due to the developed chemistry just like Curry or Jokic's teams would also win more without them for the same reason...

But by no means is Pippen, Klay or Murray anywhere near a franchise player like AD, Wade or even Kyrie, and of course their 3rd options aren't franchise guys either like Bosh or Love were.. From 2011-2016, only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were the preseason favorite every year - Durant's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond..





Do yourself a favor and re-watch the 4th quarter of the 98' ECF - Jordan is making every play down the stretch - Kukoc helps keep it close through 3 quarters, along with Jordan, but Jordan is the dominant player down the stretch of that game.. Pippen was MIA for the series of course - his 16 on 39% was transition or flow points, so never anything that requires game-planning like closing out on shooters/spacers, or potentially doubling or helping on an iso player.. Only MJ required gameplanning like this, and occasionally Kukoc and closing out on Kerr - that's it - but the main issue was how to double-team MJ, which hurts your defensive rebounding, according to Van Gundy (here).

The fact that MJ could turn Kukoc into a guy that could give him spurts of offense is a testament to his CAREER of elevating teammates and teammates playing near capacity (career highs) alongside him.. this contrasts with Lebron's skillset that imposes spot-up roles - there's a long list of guys that cratered alongside this toxic skillset.. :Literally the biggest loser of all-time when we look at bad losses (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, chokes, lotteries and locked up in a loss - this is 17 of 21 seasons) plus worst-ever Finals record = biggest loser in NBA history.

I reject the premise of your position, your questions presuppose that LeBron has to be judged through the narrow prism of what Jordan did or that Jokic will have to pass through the same prism as LeBron. It doesn’t work like that, this isn’t the passion of the Mike or LeBron. Jokic’s path will be unique and has to play out over a longer time period, when we’ll be able to make those comparative arguments.

It’s worth remembering that this thread started as LeBron was finishing up his 10th season, in the course of winning his second title and Finals MVP. If Jokic goes deep again this year he’s on the radar for sure. Let’s see what happens.

It's a fact... If Jordan never returned in 95', the Bulls were borderline .500 and a low seed - this is fact and it's a massive decline from 1994 - this downward trajectory would likely yield lottery that year or the following year in 96'.. Accordingly, compare this quick descent into lottery status without MJ, to being the goat team with MJ - that's goat impact...

This type of catastrophic, franchise-changing impact is similar to the 80's Bulls without MJ - Pippen isn't a Jokic, Curry or MJ-level player that can build a team from scratch (lottery to champion)... The Bulls required "the shot" and goat stats to gain playoff experience and grow from lottery to champion.. Pippen could only get on board for the ride and then get handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94', at which point he crashed the car within 18 months (borderline .500 before MJ returned in 95')..

Ultimately, Pippen could never build a 50-win team from scratch or have a "real" 50-win team that can win 50 every year - the Bulls were a joke once teams woke up and actually gave a crap about playing the Bulls without the GOAT - see the Bulls collapse in the 94' Playoffs and 95' regular season before MJ returned to restore 3-peats... Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95' before MJ returned.

The Bulls had a winning record before Jordan returned in 95, “lottery” they were not.

those bulls were never going to be a lottery team.

also lmao@ pretending year two 22 year old Pippen and year seven 27 year old Pippen are the same. It's almost like players have ages where they're in their prime.

You know who were actual lottery teams? the trash Lebron had in Cleveland.

lmao@ calling the 94 bulls a playoff collapse team. At this point you're just saying words randomly.

You're misstating what I said - I said the 95' Bulls were borderline .500 (34-31) and a low seed before MJ returned, which is a massive decline from 94'.. Based on this sharp downward trajectory, the Bulls would've been lottery that year or 1996, instead of being the goat team with MJ - that's the goat impact..

(if MJ hadn't returned in 95', the remainder of the 94' season would've been a pressure-filled, dogfight and it's likely the Bulls fall 1 or 2 games as needed for them to be out of playoffs - regardless, their downward trajectory indicates likely lottery status in either 95' or 96', compared to having the goat team with MJ)

Again, this type of catastrophic, franchise-changing impact is similar to the 80's Bulls without MJ - Pippen isn't a franchise player like Jokic, Curry or MJ that can build a team from scratch (lottery to champion)... The Bulls required "the shot" and goat stats to gain playoff experience and grow from lottery to champion.. Pippen could only get on board for the ride and then handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94', at which point he crashed the car within 18 months (borderline .500 before MJ returned in 95')..

Ultimately, Pippen could never build a 50-win team from scratch or have a "real" 50-win team that can win 50 every year - the Bulls were a joke once teams woke up and actually gave a crap about playing the Bulls without the GOAT - see the Bulls collapse in the 94' Playoffs and 95' regular season before MJ returned to restore 3-peats... Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95' before MJ returned.

Nobody is saying Pippen is Curry Jokic or MJ but thanks for stating the obvious.
What's your next post? Water is wet? 3 pointers are worth more than 2 pointers? Oh I know- Kyrie Irving is better than Steve Kerr!

What's amazing you is you want to do pretzel logic to declare a 55 win and .500 ish team a lottery team then ignore the actual lottery teams Lebron dragged to finals. Great stuff keep up the good work.

that's my point - Pippen was never a franchise player because he was a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg and needed a ton of development..

Even when he was fully-developed, he was still barely a 20 ppg system scorer, dunker, and low-efficiency lane-clogger - he could never space the floor or create his own shot - he simply couldn't carry the kind of offensive load that franchise guys carry, such as Embiid, Hakeem, MJ, Lebron, Jokic, Curry, etc - he was never anywhere near this level.. Pippen's caliber was prime Iguodala or Larry Nance - that was Pippen - mostly a dunker and defender and never a "go-to" player.

Accordingly, unlike Jokic, MJ or Curry, guys like Pippen or Klay could never be franchise players that build a team from scratch (lottery to champion)... The Bulls required "the shot" and goat stats to gain playoff experience and grow from lottery to champion - that's what it takes.. Pippen could only get on board for the ride and then was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94', at which point he crashed the car within 18 months (borderline .500 before MJ returned in 95')..

You aren't thinking about it clearly... Could Klay have developed the warriors without Curry?... It's obvious that the Warriors would be lottery in 2014 without Curry and heading nowhere, instead of having several years of development under their belt and on the cusp of a dynasty WITH curry.. It takes massive offensive production from guys like Curry, Barkley, MJ, Embiid or Lebron to build bad teams into contenders - guys like Klay and Pippen simply don't produce enough to build teams like that.. Again, Pippen was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and wrecked it pretty quickly.

Another example is the 89' Bulls - they won 47 games and the playoff cut was 45 wins, so they were obviously lottery without MJ's 33/8/8.. How could Pippen build that team into a champion without MJ hitting "the shot" and averaging 40/6/8 to achieve massive upset against the Cavs and Knicks?.. This is the kind of performance it takes from guys like Malone, Barkley, Embiid or any franchise player to build a lottery cast into winners.. The Bulls would clearly be 1st Round losers without MJ in 89' and where would that team go in 90'?.. They would be headed nowhere instead of towards being the goat dynasty.. that's how big an impact Jordan had.. If pippen was leading that team, it simply isn't enough talent - again, any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95' before MJ returned.

There's no world where Love or Bosh are franchise players but Pippen and Klay aren't.

What a load of bullshit. WHAT “premise” of what “position”? I didn’t state a “position”. I asked you if rings mattered yes or no, and you absolutely refuse to answer the question. The LuckyLloyd prism of bullshit.

Lol I ask if one specific criteria matters for judging player greatness. Literally “yes” or “no”. And this is the passion of the LeBron. So dramatic.

So you want to reject any specific, objective criteria, that you yourself bring up when you claim Jokic can’t be the GOAT, and instead want to talk about a players “path” of righteousness as they walk through the valley of the shadow of Cleveland. Or is it Miami, or Los Angeles. I don’t know which superteam path shines the brightest light on LuckyLloyd’s prism of bs.

Let’s try again: I’ll give anyone 10:1 odds that LuckyLloyd won’t answer this question in his next post and will instead start talking about the path of the prophet LeBron.

Do rings matter? Yes or no

Yeah, this is a lie. Please quote the post anywhere in this monstrosity of a thread (or anywhere on the internet) where someone has stated “rangz, nothing else matters”. This is quite specific, so if you are not lying it should be very easy to prove it by finding the quote.

FYI, a strawman is when you attribute a false argument to the opposition, making the argument trivial to refute. Watch this:

The claim is that what matters is how much an individual contributes to championship equity over time at their peak or through their prime years (when they’re at their best). Which would be the combination of individual stats, team success (as measured by championships won; or perhaps win % if it’s close), and longevity as a tiebreaker if their stats are ~equal and their team success is ~equal.

Can you tell if there is a difference between that statement vs. “rangz, nothing else matters”? If you aren’t able to tell the difference, you can be honest. It’s ok. There’s no need to straw man and lie just because you’re confused.

And yeah Bill Russell is probably really underrated by the cabal of nephews. 11 rings is really impressive even though he doesn’t have the offensive stats. A ton of championships but not nearly the equity (per championship) that someone like Jordan or LeBron has. He is still way up there.

Pippen and Klay aren't viable scorers and were never viewed as foundations of an offense - they're clearly secondary scorers and "system" players, while Bosh and Love achieved gaudy scoring numbers without a coddling system and were always viewed as being top guys for their teams.. They were drafted to carry bad teams, while Klay and Pippen were drafted to BE carried and achieve secondary, non-elite stats.

For example, if Draymond was the best scorer on the team, the team would win 0 games... So 40 games in the West with no help for baby Love is pretty good.. He was the Luka of his time and viewed as a completely dominant player with historic stats.. Klay wasn't this type of 1st option-type player - he was clearly a 2nd option and secondary scorer.

Meanwhile, Bosh didn't need to win a title to get All-NBA like Pippen, Klay, Dumars, Parker and Pau did.. Again, he was viewed as a top guy because of his scoring ability, while Pippen was always viewed as an athlete, dunker and secondary scorer.. He was actually only a 2nd option alongside MJ and otherwise was 3rd to 6th option on Houston or Portland.

Btw, Bosh and Love were Lebron's 3rd options, so it's kind of a moot point... the Bulls had 1 franchise player, while Lebron's needed teams with 2 or 3 franchise players on the team, yet still mostly lost with each iteration or cast... Jordan mostly won with 1 other star that was a secondary producer and no-franchise player, while Lebron mostly lost with franchise players as teammates and multiple star teammates

But who are you arguing against? Nobody is saying Pippen is better than Jokic MJ Curry so wtf are you rambling about?

You seem really irked I won’t play your game, but that’s okay.

Jokic definitely isn’t the GOAT yet, but he may be in time.

When you guys say "pippen won 55 in 1994", it implies that he was a 55-win franchise player, when the reality is that he was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever - he otherwise lacked the offensive breadth to carry a bad team and build them into a 50 win team, or have a true 50-win team that could win 50 every year as we saw in 95'.

Even lower franchise players like Love and Bosh were viewed as sufficient offensive juggernauts to carry bad teams and lead them to the playoffs - they were drafted to carry bad teams, while Pippen and Klay didn't have that caliber of scoring and were never viewed as franchise players - they were always viewed as secondary scorers in Klay's case, and even tertiary or bit scorers in pippen's case..

Pippen was really just a dunker with documented worst-ever shooting splits for any playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG, and they were TITLE runs (96' and 98').. So MJ literally had to win with the biggest bricklayer and lane-clogger in history.. Defenses packed the paint against Pippen and threw the kitchen sink at MJ, so MJ always faced multiple defenders and packed paints... Lebron and JJ Redick were recently bragging about Lebron averaging 38 ppg without spacing, but that was MJ's entire career - he won 6 titles by averaging 34 in the Finals with no spacing and against packed lanes.

Pippen is just a dunker! We have a new WOAT TWOG take. He comes up with a new one every week! Brought to you by the creator of "LeBron is Karl Malone with a handle" and "inefficient chucking is actually good!" What will he think of next? Stay tuned!

Since MJ became goat when he achieved a substantive body of work that was superior to anything Bird and Magic achieved (3-peat), Jokic can qualify for GOAT if he achieves a 4-peat

that's one way he could achieve goat without winning as many rings - just have a superior peak (4-peat and goat stats > 3-peat and goat stats)

You probably think Pippen was a "passer" but every notable 1st option in the 90's had all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 assists like Stockton, Payton, KJ or Hardaway, while Jordan was stuck with Pippen's 5 assists - so Pippen was "just a dunker" when you consider that his passing was below-par relative to his sidekick peers, along with his peak scoring ability and efficiency (system player that couldn't shoot).

Again, when you guys reference 55 wins in 1994, it implies that Pippen was a 55-win player when he was really just handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever.. He wasn't a 55-win franchise player that can build a 55-win team from scratch, since that requires elite scoring ability to carry bad teams through chemistry-development periods.. Barkley, Malone, Embiid - whoever - these franchise guys put up gaudy numbers to keep bad teams in the season or series and get better each year.... Pippen or Klay can't do that - the Bulls or Warriors would be nothing in 1989 or 2013 with Pippen or Klay leading the way and no Curry or Jordan.

In the 97' Finals, Pippen averaged 3 assists and 4 turnovers, while getting 4 points in clutch-time (last 5 within 5) - he was mostly a dunker/finisher in that series and he was even worse in the 98' or 96' Finals.. 15.7 on 34% is "just a dunker"... He shot 0% on threes in the 93' Finals and 59% from the line... Show me where Lebron won with literally ZERO SPACING from his sidekick... Again, Pippen was just a dunker.

Listen to the commentators say how Anthony Mason was locking up Pippen in the 94' ECSF and that's why Phil went with Kukoc (here)... And there's tons of video of the 92' ECSF where X-Man was dominating Pippen and people were actually noticing - normally, pippen flew under the radar and no one noticed this pedestrian production

lol ….
U don’t seem to listen much of the arguments for MJ being goat ….

I'm not reading that wall of text.

Derrick Jones Jr. is someone who can be described as "just a dunker."

Pippen = Derrick Jones Jr.?

Yes or no?

You won't look at the context - if rookie Derrick Jones landed alongside the DPOY, he might become a great defender, which would double his minutes and easy-finish opportunities to Pippen's level.. Both got mostly flow points and easy finishes but Pippen got twice the minutes by being a great defender.. We agree that Pippen was a better playmaker but far below his era's standard for sidekicks, so it's irrelevant - the reality is that the Bulls could've upgraded their team by upgrading Paxson slightly to a more playmaking PG like Kenny Smith and then replacing Pippen with almost anyone - Horry would be perfect.. (kenny smith averaged 13 and 6 APG for his career with 40% threes on 2.3 attempts - his peak was 18 and 7 with 17th in MVP voting)..

Heck, Vernon Maxwell would've also been a great upgrade from Paxson and fit amazingly with fellow competitor MJ... MJ/Maxwell or MJ/Smith + Horry/Horace in the frontcourt would yield the same results as Paxson/MJ and Pippen/Horace... There's many ways to skin a cat when you're only replacing a pippen-level producer

Btw, we already know that Horry was that alpha clutch spacer that commanded respect, which is all the opposite of Pippen.. He said he would "lock up sorry ass Pippen" and Pippen didn't fair well against alphas like X-Man or Horry or Juwan Howard.. Pippen is also 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so Horry achieved a superior combination of stats in the Finals than Pippen ever did - i.e. it's a low bar to find someone to exceed Pippen's peak performance
.

So Jordan would have turned Derrick Jones Jr. into Scottie Pippen?

What evidence do you have for that besides, you pulled it out of your ass?