Do you think it would hurt his claim one iota if he'd been robbed in the voting in one or two of those finals?

Does it hurt LeBron's claim he doesn't have five MVPs in a row? Do you honestly think MJ is a better defender because he has a DMVP and LeBron doesn't?

Maybe my point wasnt clear, I agree you generally need MVP level seasons and rings as best player. I'll just be the judge of what seasons qualify when I'm deciding *my* GOAT tyvm

Welcome cbax, your induction is complete. We have years and thousands of posts of these types of arguments ahead, put the feet up and get cosy pal.

The reason this thread exists - as you have already figured out quite obviously - is not because some people think MJ is the greatest of all time. Rather it’s because they want to twist reality to make LeBron a useless plumber who ruined basketball.

Now you understand why we don't take him seriously lol.

I'm team LeBron but I have no issue with Jordan #1 as long as you are logically consistent and have LeBron top 2.

TWOG is a hater who has a personal vendetta against LeBron and cherry picks whatever suits his narrative. It's the same tired BS every post... Pippen sucked... everyone LeBron played with in Clevelend was actually amazing... LARRY HUGHES, ERIC SNOW, ZYDRUNAS ILGAUSKAS, 38-year old SHAQUILLE O'NEAL! All amazing players that LeBron should have won with.

Pippen wasn't "pretty good" offensively.. He was worse than Jeff Green outside the system and benefitted from the Bulls' defensive focus that led to a lot of transition points.. His efficiency, 4th quarter and clutch numbers are worst-ever.. Listen to Pippen admit to Rachel Nichols that he cratered in Houston because he couldn't provide the spacing that a big man offense needed - keep in mind that most notable 1st options in the 90's were bigs, so he's basically admitting that he could only win with MJ.. Anyone that needed spacing like Hakeem or Lebron are screwed - Pippen literally compares himself to a bad Westbrick fit in talking to Rachel Nichols (here).

Again, guys like Shaq said Pippen wasn't on the scouting report and Horry said he would easily "lock up" the "sorry ass" Pippen.. Pippen is infact 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so it's a low bar to find someone that can consistently outplay Pippen against top competition.




The stats and historical record shows that Pippen never played above a prime Iguodala or Larry Nance caliber but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.. Similar to many secondary-producing and non-franchise player sidekicks like Klay, Pau, Dumars, and Parker, Pippen didn't get All-NBA until he won titles... Otoh, guys like Wade, Bosh, Love and AD were All-NBA before winning titles or even FMVP before colluding with Lebron.

Ultimately, the stats you cited earlier like PER and WS/48 put Pippen about 130th all-time, but the winning spotlight (ring count) makes him top 30 in the media's eyes and many nascent or casual fans.. BPM is a stat that is based a lot of team defense, which puts Pippen at 35th, but that's still below every Lebron sidekick (AD, Wade, Kyrie).. VORP is an accumulation stat based on games and minutes played, but Pippen's peak VORP season ranks 100th all-time... Given these weak production rates, no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen, which makes him the most overrated player of all-time - a dunker that couldn't create his own shot and mentality that folded like cardboard.




I never said Jamison was a better player than Pippen - I said he's a better scorer, but they are infact close as players... Pippen could never outscore Lebron in a series, while Jamison easily did... Most people would agree that Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, which means the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better team defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

(both the 2010 Cavs and 1st three-peat Bulls had #7 defense but the 09' and 07' Cavs had the #4 defense, while the 08' Cavs used their defense to take the Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed, aka 26 on 35%).




Lebron's skillset decreases his teammates' assists and increases their play-finishing, aka he turns teammates into spot-up shooters, so how could he develop players by turning them into spot-up shooters?

You tell me.

Lebron never developed any All-NBA players even though we know that Hughes was far better in 2005 than Pippen was in 1990, while Mo, Zydrunas and Jamison were all-stars alongside Lebron or recently before joining Lebron.. In addition to not developing the aforementioned talent, other guys that were already All-NBA like Love actually cratered alongside Lebron, so Lebron reverses positive trajectories.. Many guys cratered alongside him after promising expectations.

In contrast to lebron cratering teammates, Kobe turned a 1x all-star like Pau into a perennial All-NBA player, while MJ and Curry built single-digit rookies like Pippen, Klay and Dray into decorated veterans.. The common thread with these guys is expert jumpshooting skill (MJ, Curry, Kobe), which allows teammates to have the ball in their hands (improve) and get bailed out when needed.. This approach also facilitates ball movement and higher assists for teammates and teams, which leads to a brand that has winning records on the championship level.. The facts and historical record continue to support all claims put forth.




Jokic doesn't have any All-NBA players and neither did other guys.. Any all-timer like Curry, Giannis, Jokic, MJ and Lebron developed league favorites by Year 7 with normal or "organic" casts of 1 franchise player and a secondary producer at sidekick..

The difference is that Lebron gave up after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter - he achieved a greater roster than the 1 franchise player model roster by teaming up with multiple franchise players to achieve a "super-team" (3 franchise players on 1 team).. Yet he still mostly lost with each cast that he had - he never proved that he could have a dominant team that mostly won each year, regardless of what cast he's given, aka objectively inferior to MJ (6/6) and many others that achieved dominant teams.

But MJ stands alone because he was unbeatable the instant he got 1 star teammate (6 titles in 7 years), while Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates (3 titles in 7 years from 11-17').. MJ is essentially punished for winning with the first all-star he ever received and never needing another one, while everyone else in history needed many all-star teammates and still won much less than MJ.
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I gave logical criteria - history shows that certain skillsets develop better chemistry and therefore need the least help, which is expert jumpshooters, followed by centers, followed by ball-dominators - so the top 10 is ranked by the best in each category - the best jumpshooters (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird), followed by the best centers (Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq), followed by the best ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron, Oscar) who needed the most help of any category.

So yes, this does place the turnover kingpin at #11, but at least it's logical (sort by least help needed to win and/or be unbeatable).. Btw, clearly Jokic will enter the top 10 above Lebron after 3 chips

Nobody thinks 39 year old Lebron is the GOAT. His time has passed so all of this is pointless. But he's still an all star level player which is impressive.

I think 29 year old Lebron on this current Lakers team would make them the title favourites.

Agreed and Lebron was preseason favorite from 2011-2016 and 2021, but only 3 titles in those 7 years (only 2 as first option) and it was nearly only 1 title due to 2 teammate bailouts.

So based on the historical evidence, 29-year old Lebron would still mostly lose with this favored cast just like every version of Lebron mostly lost with every cast he ever had.

Ultimately, Lebron never showed that he could win with normal casts of 1 franchise player and a secondary-producing, non-franchise player at sidekick (organic casts) - he always needed teams with multiple franchise players on the team, yet still mostly lost.. Bron-ball mostly lost with "normal" casts of 1 franchise player all the way up to "super-teams" of 3 franchise players.. Accordingly, he's the most beatable all-timer ever, with more bad losses than anyone ever (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, 1st-round losses, locked up in a loss, lottery - this is 16 of 21 years).

It turns out that ball-dominance isn't a great brand of ball, let alone big man ball-dominance (the worst kind of ball-dominance)

Can you repeat that a few more times? I still don't quite get it.

Great point if there's one thing Kobe was known for it's team chemistry hahaha

It's cute how when anyone else it's even one shot it's LeBron getting bailed out.

You don't even want to give him an ounce of credit for playing out of his mind the last 3 games against the 73 win warriors who added durant (2 of them road games) to win the championship in Cleveland. You have zero credibility when do do stuff like this.

The Dallas series is an inexcusable loss.

The first loss to GS Irving played 1 game and Love played 0 in the finals. I don't care if they were preseason favorites. Jordan isn't beating GS with that heap of **** team LeBron played with in those finals.

So realistically he was 3-3 with those "preseason favorite teams". You also act like preseason favorites are something like -200 when you're still a dog to the field.

If you wanna say Jordan is better fine but don't rewrite history.

Only 3 titles in 6 years? What a pathetic loser.

The “LeBron wasn’t first option in 2020” statement remains so silly, a great example of how TWOG / fallguy is full of ****.

‘But Davis had 27.7 ppg in the playoffs compared to LeBron’s 27.6ppg, the historical record is Davis was therefore the first option’

LeBron had the higher usage in the playoffs, was dishing 9 assists a game. But moreover:

- he was second in MVP voting
- he was unanimous 1st Team All - NBA along with Giannis
- he was the Finals MVP

It’s just the constant effort to get these things through that ruin all credibility. The sheer desperate WANT for LeBron to be lessor than he is. It’s so sad.

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The stats below confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are equal or bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:

PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem....... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'........... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP.......................... 11.0.............3.5............... 1.2............ 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan'.......... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen.......... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP.......................... 13.2............ 9.6............... 2.1............. 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk'............... 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry.............. 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP........................... 4.9...............1.1.............. 0.5.............. 0.031........... 10.2

92' Jordan''.......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen........... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP............................ 7.1............. 3.3.............. 0.8.............. 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan'........... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen........... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP.......................... 10.0............. 8.1.............. 1.4............... 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan'........... 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........... 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP............................. 7.3............. 2.9.............. 0.6.............. 0.122........... 13.8

97' Jordan'............ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen............ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP............................. 9.1............. 4.8.............. 1.0.............. 0.090.......,... 11.9

98' Jordan'............ 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen............ 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP............................. 8.7............. 3.4............... 0.8.............. 0.095.......... 16.4

Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:

Accordingly the statistical record confirms that Pippen's burden or production rates weren't all-time caliber, and therefore his performance was inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade




It's always AD-ball against the top teams like the 2020 Nuggets... Or even this year when the Lakers were ahead by 20 - it was AD-ball at that time - but then Lebron-ball lost the lead in the 2nd half..

So it's a tie at best between AD and Lebron, whereas the stats above show that MJ's 6 rings were among the biggest carry-jobs of all-time - carry-jobs of that magnitude are only one-offs like Dirk, Hakeem or 03' Duncan, but MJ did it 6 times.. If we did that analysis for AD/Lebron in 2020 or this year, the "GAP" would be negligible across the board and therefore a tag-team effort instead of carry-job like 94' Hakeem or MJ's rings.

Btw, AD didn't just lead Lebron in scoring for the 2020 playoffs, he led the whole league on both sides of the ball - that's why the Lakers went from lottery to champion in AD's first season - it's a GOAT season for AD.

However, AD and his team have been significantly hindered by having to deal with an insufferable aging star that wants to hang on and 'chase ghosts' and dominate the ball.. AD was fortunate to get a ring upfront before Lebron had time to stink up the joint with his worst-ever chemistry, brand of ball and coaching futility.. Unfortunately for Darvin Ham, the coach is the ultimate fall guy.

You would make an incredible scientist.

It’s more of a pathetic goat.
Obviously still a winning great player ?

I'm just providing a thorough answer to your question about PER, BPM, VORP, & WS/48

However, people forget that 1st options dictate brand of ball, so there are ball-dominant PER's that impose spot-up roles, thereby preventing teammate development and elite chemistry (Luka, Lebron), or there are PER's that allow the ball to move and have great chemistry (Curry, MJ, Jokic)... The PER with great chemistry will obviously win a lot more, and with less help, while also developing teammates much better..

Due to the 1st option's impact on brand of ball and teammate development, a direct comparison of PER between 1st options isn't as valuable as comparing 2nd options, who are closer to pure stat-producers that don't dictate brand of ball.. So a comparison of PER/BPM/VORP/WS/48 between 2nd options like Larry Nance and Pippen is valuable, while a comparison of Kobe, Bird and Lebron doesn't reflect the teammate development, chemistry and brand of ball advantage (winning advantage) that Kobe or Bird have.. Otoh, when we look at 2nd options (pure stat producers), we see that Pippen ranks about 130 in PER all-time and never played above a prime Iguodala or Nance level, but the winning spotlight/ring count inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Great chemistry and winning inflates the status of role players and defenders like Pippen, Draymond or Aaron Gordon - these guys were lucky to land alongside generational offensive talents that produced tremendous brand of ball and chemistry... But we saw Pippen crater outside the system that he grew up in.. The same would be true for Draymond if he was toiling away in Detroit with 8/7/6 averages - no one would give a crap who he was.. Meanwhile, Gordon was a reject before latching on to Jokic... It's the winning chemistry and subsequent ring count that inflates the all-time value of these secondary producers.

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Summary of lessons learned in Nuggets-Lakers series


Role players perform better within great chemistry, while history shows that great chemistry and subsequent winning can inflate the status of secondary producers and defenders like Aaron Gordon, Pippen or Draymond - these guys were lucky to land alongside generational offensive talents that produced tremendous brand of ball and chemistry, which inflated the stats, ring count and ultimately the status of these secondary producers... But we saw Pippen crater outside the system and his averages within the system were still ordinary... The same would be true if Draymond was toiling away in Detroit with 8/7/6 averages - no one would give a crap who he was and his ordinary numbers wouldn't get the props they do now with the luster of a gaudy ring count behind them.. Meanwhile, Gordon was a reject before latching on to Jokic and his numbers are ordinary... So it's the winning chemistry and subsequent ring count that inflates the all-time status of these secondary producers.. If only Rui, Ingram, Kuzma or Vanderbilt could've latched on to Jokic instead of Gordon, then they would be recognized as all-timers due to their ring count alongside Jokic - ring count makes these guys all-timers, not their production rates or stats... Ultimately, a guy like Pippen never played above a prime Iguodala or Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight and ring count inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Similar to many winning sidekicks such as Dumars, Tony Parker, Pau, or Klay, Pippen didn't get All-NBA until after he won a title.

Actual lesson learned -team with the best player in the league and a very good supporting cast will beat a team with the former best player in the league at 39 years old.
Denver was -400 for a reason.

Also try paragraphs.

Except you're not. You're purposely cherrypicking and twisting data to form false conclusions to fit your narrative. It's like you've been given a prompt which states you must prove MJ is better than Lebron rather than actually logically/unbiasedly analyzing the data. A great example is your Larry Hughes/Pippen argument which can be easily disproven in 5 seconds. The fact that you ran with it either means you're a huge idiot (which I don't think you are), so far bias it has completely clouded your judgement, or just flat trolling everybody.

The reason I was being facetious is there are so many variables in your Jordan/Hakeem/Dirk data that not only can no logical conclusion be formed but you also contradicted yourself and actually provided data that proved what you were trying to make us all believe is actually false.

You're literally just lying at this point. You've lost any and all credibility. Iggy's best PER season was 19.0 in '08. Pippen's PER was higher than 19.0 every single year from '91-'98

He lies all the time, he literally got caught saying Shaq was 35 when he was teammates with LeBron. Anyone can verify that Shaq was 38 in 2010.

Mind you, he also ranks Kobe as the #2 player of all-time, because Kobe supposeddly "carried" 3-time finals MVP Shaq to 3 titles. So prime Shaq is worse than Kobe, yet 38-year old Shaq was supposed to help LeBron win.

Make that pile of garbage make sense.

I don't have to prove Lebron is inferior because he consistently plays worse than MJ ever did... This season, he failed to win 50 games with a David Robinson-level teammate - that's disqualifying regardless of age..

38-year old MJ added 18 more wins to the injury-riddled Wizards in 02', so he would never miss the play-in with AD and Westbrook, or fail to win 50 this year with AD having such a dominant season.. And don't blame age because PRIME LEBRON barely won 50 with 2 all-stars in 14' or 17' - having weak teams with preseason favorites and stacked rosters is disqualifying.. Mostly losing with 2 star teammates is disqualifying when MJ was unbeatable with just 1... Having bad chemistry and a long list of bad fits that causes all this team underachievement is disqualifying.

Getting destroyed with 22 on 35% in the 07' Finals is disqualifying - it invalidates his Eastern conference win because apparently a 22 on 35% bum achieved it.. Many other 22-year olds did far better against championship comp, such as Amare averaging 37 on 55% against the 05' Spurs, or 20-year Magic getting FMVP, or 23-year old MJ averaging 44 on 50% against the Celtics and their #1 defense, while 23-year Lebron wet the bed vs 08' Celtics (26 on 35%)... So don't make excuses - shooting 35-39% in a loss is disqualifying and Lebron did it 3 times.

So there's no real debate - only a fake one.




The Hughes argument is validated by the Westbrook argument... And the Ingram argument... And the IT or Wade arguments... Lebron had bad fits with many spotty-shooting ball-dominators like himself.

So despite your misperceptions, the historical record shows that Lebron received MANY guys that were vastly superior to 1990 Pippen, including the aforementioned 05' Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook and Wade - all were bad fits that underachieved expectation... So the Hughes argument was never invalidated because it's a general historical trend that Lebron cannot fit with Pippen-type players (spotty-shooting ball-handlers).

So again, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball.. But even though Hughes was healthy for most of 07' and all of 08', the Cavs were winning 45-50 games due to bad fit with Hughes - it's Lebron's fault that he lacks the skill to fit with pippen-like players such as Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook or Wade because it's Lebron that lacks the required "off-guard" skillset - this includes expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates (off-ball).. Again, this is a skill deficit that Lebron has in relation to Jordan or Curry that hinders his chemistry and winning ability compared to them.



I know you're happy about tonight but remember that 3-0 deficits in the 1st round = sweeps in the GOAT debate - Jordan was never swept 4-0..

So Lebron has sweeps or record losses in 07', 14', 18', 23', and 24', while having the goat choke in 11' and another record loss with 2 all-star teammates in 17'... Upset losses in 09' or 10' and lottery in his prime with Ingram, or missed play-ins with AD and Westbrook..

Accordingly, o one has more bad losses than Lebron, which coupled with his lottery record on the championship level makes him the biggest loser of all-time
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nobody gives a rat's ass about the Lakers winning tonight as far as this topic goes. Nobody who thinks Lebron is better thinks this game helps their case at all. It's meaningless in the grand scheme of things. But you thinking getting swept in the finals with a heap of **** team in 2007 is a knock on Lebron is mid 2000's level Chappelle funny.

The fact you even mention 39 year old Lebron in this context is really funny. Kobe was a washed up chucking bum at 36. Jordan at this age was way worse than Lebron. I still think Jordan's prime is better than Lebron's but Lebron being better at 39 than Jordan (lmao @even mentioning Kobe in the same breath at Lebron at this age or frankly any age) doesn't somehow help your argument.

Like yea we get it you don't like Lebron. Nobody cares. You think you have these amazing "gotcha" points when you try to compare him at 39 to Jokic in his prime. I hate to break it to you but prime Jokic would abuse old man Wizards Jordan and he could be **** faced drunk of his ass and abuse 36 (yes 3 years younger) Kobe left handed.

I'm actually excited to hear your argument on how a Wizards MJ would have won a ring with this Lakers team if he replaced Lebron. I'd like to prematurely nominate it for spin zone of the year.

You beat me to it!