zomg you totally stole my idea I posted this in some other football thread.

Finnaly a coach gets it right. Obviously this would never work in the NFL, but I have watched High School games, the punters blow chuncks, special teams blow chunks, half the time the punt is returned close to the same damn spot where it was punted away anyway. You're seriously better off just always going for it in HS, I'm not suprised by this success at all. I actually think the rules should be changed for HS where you aren't allowed to return a punt in HS, because the way it is currently coaches should NEVER do it!

basically what i was trying to say....... high school game is completely different from pro game. in HS, just the snap for the punt is highly risky. should think of quick kicking on 3rd down and long, or just not punting...................... and i'd think kicking the kickoff deep is just a recipe for disaster given how dominant many high school running backs are.

I coached HS football for 3 seasons and played in college...

I can honestly say, with absolutely no hesitation, that using an onside kick 75% of the time is one the stupidest ***** things I've ever heard

worst appeal to authority ever?

Yeah it was pretty bad.


I'd like to see his onside kick recovery percentage. My guess is that they're getting about 25-30% recovered. They have a wide variety and do it all the time against teams that have little to no experience defending it. Not bad at all for trading off an average of 14 yards of field position. Plus, you're not giving up a potential kick return for a score on the kickoff - which happens much more in highschool games. The more I think about it, the more I like it.

Probably.

However, since it's been brought up: How come the guys on Madden Nation don't appear to go for the onsides kick very often, nor do they seem to go for it on fourth down unless they are losing?

agreed on this as well. I think onsiding every play is probably dumb but squib kicking it half the time or more might seriously be the way to go (in high school)

I think recovery% on Madden for onsides kicks sucks a lot.

agreed, and the only reason everyone is sucking off this coach is because his team has 3x the talent of everyone they play. His philosophy is garbage.

Yeah this is a huge factor, imo. On 3rd and 6, a run play is just as likely as a pass. I mean, you're giving yourself 33% more opportunities to move the chain with each possession.

Not to mention the fact that the other team's defense would have no idea what to expect or how to play those 3rd and 6's.

So all you sissies who are afraid to go for it on fourth down: what did you think of Mangini, behind in the fourth quarter, punting on 4th and 2 while in Miami territory?

i lol'd

Good god, someone must have been looking at my friend's Madden tapes.

Ya, but they also turn the ball over some percent of the time after converting.

Everyone on this forum is super aggro when going for it, read the stupid coaching decisions and in game threads. This isn't a false dilemma where you need to always punt or never punt and in this case I am pretty sure the coach has been slightly sub-optimal if he hasn't punted once.

What about Texas Tech vs Ole Miss in the Cotton Bowl today. Texas Tech went for it on forth and 5 in a very tight game on there own 40 with a qb sneak and didnt get it. What a dumb ass play. The high school team that won the state championship must have been bad ass because that definitly will not be a winning strategy for most teams.

Lesson learned:
Seems +EV to teach (male) kids how to punt from an early age. I mean it can't be that hard to train leg muscles and kick a ball but it may very well earn them a scholaship some day :P

My thought process in a nutshell: Pats deserve it. Spyowned.

Bump as this was in the Scorecard section of this past week's SI.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...0256/index.htm
A good, short read especially if you haven't heard about this before.

Would he believe in his no punting system if the talent of all the teams were equal? I'm so sick of hearing about this guy and his system when his private school team is always the most talented and shouldn't even be allowed to play in a public school league. Of course they convert 50% of their 4th downs, they have D-1 linemen blocking for low level D-1 QB's throwing to high level D-1 WR's playing against teams with enrollments of 600 kids.

Off the top of my head the only factors that would make punting correct are

1. The distance to be gained is long (5+ yards)

2. You are back in your own territory

3. You have a seriously awesome punter who can boom it or pin it inside the 5 on a regular basis

4. Situational, late in a half or game, depending on the score and the amount of time left

As has been discussed many times before, coaches don't always pick the +EV play for winning the game. They often pick the "safe" (less variance play) as that's better for their job security.

You get critized more harshly when something doesn't turn out well than praised when it does turn out well.

Sports commentary is pretty much 99% results oriented.

LOL

As the coach says, the effect of your offense knowing they have four downs to get 10 yards every time is probably huge. It surely becomes a hell of a lot easier to execute on first and second down when you know that you got an extra shot to get it done.

This is something that perplexes me a lot reading this thread. Obviously, I come from a different sporting background and a secondary school (Highschool) that played Rugby and Gaelic football and would always have a bunch of kids who could competently do what punters are asked to do in America football with the minimum of fuss. But the idea that a school which has produced a competent HS football team can't find / convert one of their kids with athletic talent to kick the ball 40 - 60 yards from the hand with decent accuracy seems crazy. You're going to have a bunch of really athletic kids, are you telling me one of them can't be trained to do the above? I mean, your star WR can go in and punt the ball, you don't need a specialist punter? Right?

I think this guy just sucks at coaching conventional special teams play. So he uses this strategy to get around his suckiness.

How much is the 'four down' factor worth from a play calling stand point? Is there any way to quantify this?

For example, the defense knows the offense is going to pass 90-95% when it's 3rd and 8 in a traditional system. However, it can't cheat as much towards pass when the team has an additional down, making passes more effective on 3rd downs.

I think it's definitely worth something but I'm not a big football guy so I can't quantify it. Now a 3rd down is more like a traditional 2nd down, thus advancing the ball a few yards is in play.

I'm not sure yet that ALWAYS going for it on 4th down is the right play but maybe it is. For example, going for it on 4th and long deep in your own territory and with a lead and not much time left. The article points out what average field position is in those circumstances and while it's not good for the punting team, it's still better than it would be to turn it over on downs. Also, he doesn't seem willing to consider potential weakness on opponent special teams. Either he's stubborn or is convinced that going for it > punting in every single circumstance, which in some of them seems weird.