The issue was jumpshooting volume.. Unlike Kobe or MJ, Lebron has low jumpshooting volume, so he can't fit with in-out bigs (Love, Pau, Shaq, Bosh) or have great ball movement, chemistry, and the best team offense.

At 1000 attempts, Lebron's jumpshooting efficiency craters, so he can't have high jumpshooting volume, which hurts ball movement and cannot fit with in-out bigs.. Otoh, the expert jumpshooting skill of MJ and Kobe allow the same jumpshooting efficiency at 50-100% more volume (1500 attempts).. The ability to maintain or even increase eFG despite nearly doubling the volume allows goat fits with in-out bigs, who require high-scoring teammates to stay out of the paint.

Of course, your career eFG numbers are irrelevant because they include at-rim shots (ball-dominance), and that's the issue we're talking about - Lebron's ball-dominant approach sacrifices ball movement, fits and brand of ball to achieve better individual efficiency.. That's why the story is always Lebron shooting well as chemistry and teammate performance suffers..

Given these inherently suboptimal natures of Lebron's game, his brand of ball requires exorbitant help and competes at a lottery caliber on the championship level (22-33) - he's incapable of producing "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches (aka 3-peat or 3 in 5 like Curry or Duncan), and mostly loses regardless of cast.

You aren't valuing the most important aspects of scoring, which are quality of moves, diversity and shot-making ability.

Kobe is unmatched in these areas outside of MJ.

Who cares about percentages - it matters little unless they're really bad like Iverson, Westbrook, or the 3 times that Lebron lost as 1st option with under 40% shooting.. We all remember when Lebron was praised for playing exactly like Iverson in the 15' Finals, 08' ECSF, and 07' Finals by virtue of horrific efficiency at high volumes (chucking) and no defense.

So again, Kobe > Lebron by virtue of goat scoring diversity (i.e. jumpshooting volume and playing off teammates), which produced better chemistry (fits with in-out bigs, triangle), team ceilings (3-peat), and winning with less (winning with a 2nd option that was worse than Love or Bosh).

^^^ Am right winning the MJ vs Lebron debate so severely that now I'm even winning the Kobe vs Lebron debate?

Cause that's what it feels like

Nothing creates open shots better than attacking the rim

I don't know if you're winning the MJ/LeBron debate so much as people are sick of you not listening. I ignited the Kobe/LeBron discussion because (1) I'm not gonna argue that MJ isn't the GOAT and (b) you putting Kobe at #2 and LeBron at #12 is batshit stupid.

I don't know if the 80s was the greatest or toughest era. It was maybe the fastest of the more physical eras and is iconic for marking the beginning of basketball on the national stage. Moving from taped delays to must-see TV. But the 90s through the Curry-KD Warriors just kept getting better and better, IMO.

If we're just discussing peak, sure, Shaq and Bird get huge bumps, but I'm not just talking peak.

Just so we are clear. Jordan would be better at 3s if he took more volume. LeBron would be worse at mid ranges if he took more volume.

Anyway. I gave you a really simple task and you didn't do it. Because you know the result. LeBron had a better eFG% on jump shots than Kobe.

RIP Kobe > LeBron jump shooter.

Pure nonsense - literally the extreme opposite of the truth.

History shows that ball movement offenses led by expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ, Bird), or fundamental bigs (Kareem, Jokic, Duncan) are the best and most frequent #1 offenses..

Otoh, Lebron never had a #1 offense.. His offenses always need for more talent because the "down-hill" skillset lacks chemistry - it isn't 5-man basketball and imposes spot-up roles.. The spot-up roles reduce teammates' assists, which yields low TEAM assists and a brand that has a lottery record on the championship level (22-33 in the Finals).

Ultimately, who cares if Lebron "elevates" guys into spot-up shooters that average 9 ppg like JR Smith - that isn't elevating anything at all - players cannot grow into good players alongside him because the ceiling is being a spot-up shooter.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters let the ball move and are assisted by teammates, so teammate develop into All-NBA such as Pau, Pippen or Klay - these guys developed into All-NBA after an expert jumpshooter carried them to titles.

In contrast to Curry, MJ or Kobe elevating teammates to All-NBA, Lebron's teammates were already good before him such as Love, Bosh, Wade, or Zydrunas... However, they were all reduced unless they were already an elite shooter (Kyrie, Mo), or simply better than him (AD).

You're putting a lot of effort into trying to misunderstand.

lebron WAS worse at mid-range when he took more volume

jordan WAS better at threes when he took more volume

Again, none of the things I say are subjective opinion - I'm merely pointing out the historical record that you have been trained to overlook, or simply overlook.




Who cares about a 90% FT shooter that only shoots 1 FT per game.

At high volume, Kobe's jumpshooting efficiency was elite and destroys Lebron's, who Lebron shot like trash at 1000 attempts (~40%) and never reached 1200 attempts... Meanwhile, Kobe attempted 1200-1700 jumpers at 45-47% each year from 2006 to 2010.

Since Lebron cannot shoot jumpshoots efficiently at high volume, he cannot have a high assisted rate to facilitate ball movement and fits, such as playing off the in-out bigs (love, pau, bosh), or other spotty-shooting ball-handlers like himself (westbrook, ingram, wade, hughes, clarkson, etc).

So there's no comparison of the jumpshooting skill and efficiency of Kobe and Lebron.. Kobe had expert jumpshooting skill, touch, and bag, which allowed elite jumpshooting efficiency at high volume and therefore great ball movement teams.. Otoh, Lebron is a low volume jumpshooter due to stone hands and feet, so he must have dominate the ball instead and produce weaker teams/chemistry.

And again, jumpshooting volume is the key, because it determines if a player has the goat skillset of expert jumpshooting that promotes great ball movement, chemistry and teams, or whether they have lower jumpshooting volume and dominate the ball instead... The greater jumpshooting volume and the associated chemistry and team benefits is why the jumpshooting skillset is the best skillset and superior to ball-dominators - this is why my top 10 is ranked the way it is with the best jumpshooters over the best ball-dominators.

.
Regular Season

Hornacek.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay.............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48... 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.... 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay.............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48..... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.... 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

.

"I didn't start making all-defense until AFTER i won the title" - Tayshaun Prince

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvgxM1xZQN0&t=04m17s

It's called "winning spotlight"... For example, Gary Payton was 9x All-NBA without ever winning a title, so he was truly great on his own by not needing the winning spotlight to be seen as good - this is similar to other franchise guys like Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, Kyrie - they were all viewed as great on their own without needing the winning spotlight to get All-NBA.

Otoh, we see many non-franchise players and secondary producers like Klay, Pau, Pippen, Dumars, and Tony Parker need titles to get All-NBA - they need winning spotlight to be seen as great.. (btw, they're non-franchise players because they're non-elite producers that weren't tasked with building a team from scratch).

Accordingly, the most overrated players of all-time are sidekicks that needed the winning spotlight to be seen as good and All-NBA.. For example, look at Klay - he's probably a more egregious case than Pippen - he is destroyed by Hornacek across the board (previous post) but no one would think that Hornacek was a much better player because Hornacek was not part of a historic dynasty... (again, Klay and Hornacek are secondary options, who don't dictate brand of ball or chemistry like 1st options do, so their stats can be directly compared - secondary options are more like statistical robots).

Possible .
Depends where you are on the bell curve .
Since jordan was on the far left of it , yup the chances are higher he would have done better .
LeBron james would I guess be more on the middle of the bell curve I suppose so yeah he could do worse .

You still haven't completed my really simple request.

Imagine using 37% on the short 3pt line as a huge plus

Tell me who the top 10 scorers were from 1968.

aka your request is meaningless - the reason that I posted the jumpshooting stats was to show the combination of VOLUME and efficiency - high jumpshooting volume allows a player to be considered a jumpshooter, assuming the volume comes with good efficiency as well.

Unfortunately, Lebron cannot have good efficiency at high jumpshooting volume, so he doesn't have high jumpshooting volume and therefore must be a lesser skillset entirely (ball-dominator) - this lesser skillset has weaker chemistry and teams and therefore ranks lower all-time than other skillsets.

Just so we are clear..

lebron WAS worse at mid-range when he took more volume

jordan WAS better at threes when he took more volume

since lebron was worse at mid-range when he took more volume, we know Lebron couldn't perform as well in prior eras where more mid-range was required to shoot over packed paints.. otoh, since jordan was better at threes when he took more volume, we know he would shoot better at today's volumes and today's format that produces a bunch of open threes for literally everyone.,

Simple request and you won't do it.

Let me make the request again. Please give career stats for Kobe and LeBron on jump shots.

I guess we all learnt that LeBron is a better jump shooter than Kobe today.

Lebron had no jumpshooting volume, so no... But it might make sense to post the career stats for seasons above a baseline volume of say, 1000 attempts.

Lebron simply isn't a jumpshooter by virtue of low jumpshooting volume, while low efficiency at even average volumes ensures that he mostly drives - driving is his game because he isn't capable of shooting mostly jumpers, due to low efficiency at even average volumes.

Otoh, Kobe has great efficiency at high jumpshooting volumes, so he could shoot mostly jumpers, which allowed more assisted buckets, ball movement, and better fits (playing off of in-out bigs)..

Ultimately, massive samples show that jumpshooters like Curry, Kobe or MJ produced better chemistry, so they have higher team ceilings (3-peat) and win with less (winning with 2nd options that were worse than Love or Bosh).

.
.
Lebron was arguably NOT the best player in all these series:

2007 1st Round

Jamison............... 32 on 48%
Lebron'................ 28 on 43%


2007 Finals

Parker................ 25 on 47%... 3 TO's... 16.2 gmsc
Lebron............... 22 on 36%... 6 TO's... 10.6 gmsc


2008 2nd Round

Garnett............... 20 on 55%.. 1 TO's.. 17.6 gmsc
Lebron................ 26 on 35%.. 6 TO's.. 17.5 gmsc


2011 2nd Round

Wade............... 30 on 50%
Lebron............. 28 on 50%


2011 ECF

Bosh'................ 23 on 60%
Lebron............. 26 on 45%


2011 Finals

Dirk.................. 26 on 42%
Lebron'............ 18 on 48%


2012 Finals

Durant............ 31 on 55%
Lebron............ 29 on 47%


2014 ECF

George'........... 24 on 45% (faced 1 on 5 coverage)
Lebron............ 23 on 56% (had equal-scoring partner in Wade)


2016 1st Round

Kyrie............... 28 on 47%
Lebron'........... 23 on 48%


2017 Finals

Durant.......... 35 on 56%
Lebron.......... 34 on 56%


2018 Finals

Durant.......... 29 on 53%... FMVP
Lebron.......... 34 on 53%


2020 1st Round

AD................. 30 on 57%
Lebron'......... 27 on 60%


2020 2nd Round

AD................. 25 on 60%
Lebron'......... 26 on 51%


2020 WCF

AD................. 30 on 55%
Lebron'......... 25 on 50%


2010 (last 3 games)

Rondo............... 22 on 52%
Lebron.............. 21 on 34% (quit and lost as -500 favorite to 50-win fossils)

#fakegoat
.
.

man you are really digging into the hate with bullshit like this
Some others also just stupid, and basketball is more than just scoring.

The best one is your 2010 last 3 games, if the narrative doesn't fit, shrink the sample size until it does. Maybe he went 0-4 in game 4s between 7:47PM-7:52PM on the west coast on Tuesdays.

The point is that an argument can be made that Lebron wasn't the best player in many series based on the most important category in the sport (scoring)... Otoh, there was no argument possible that Jordan wasn't the best player since he led every series by 10-30 ppg over all teammates and led all opponents by healthy margins as well..

The only exception was Jordan's very first series where his 29/7/9 was possibly outplayed by Cummings, who outscored Jordan.. So Jordan has 1 series that he arguably wasn't the best player, while Lebron has dozens.




Part of the reason that Lebron has weaker teams and lost so much more than MJ was because he lost in so many more WAYS than Jordan did.

Jordan never lost with favored talent, while Lebron lost as the preseason favorite or homecourt 7 times.. He was also swept 4-0 a bunch - this includes losing 4 straight 4th quarter leads to get swept by the 23' Nuggets - that's an unprecedented way to lose.

In addition to losing with favored talent or getting swept 4-0, Lebron also lost via bed-wetting, which MJ never did either.. Lebron lost a 7-game series by averaging 26 on 35% with 6 TO per game in the 08' ECSF - this proved that those Cavs were a good team, since they almost won despite Lebron being a massive negative.

Lebron lost with an all-star teammate and lost 3 times with 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17'), while also being lottery in his prime (19') before AD arrived to lift them to champion.

Truly great players like Isiah, MJ, and Shaq can make All-NBA and be seen as great without the winning spotlight of titles.

Otoh, players that aren't truly great need the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and get All-NBA - this includes Pau, Klay, Pippen, Gimobili, Parker and many more "carried" sidekicks - they needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and make All-NBA, or in Tayshaun Prince's case, all-defense - here's Prince saying that the winning spotlight got him recognized (here).

The previous post deals in correlations, not absolutes

Guys like Wade, MJ, Shaq, AD, Isiah - they were going to get numerous All-NBA no matter what

But guys like Klay, Pippen, Pau??????... Not so much.... They needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and get All-NBA - the historical timeline shows this.. If they were losing on the Wizards, they might not get any All-NBA and certainly not anywhere near what they got.

It's consensus that Lebron was outplayed in various playoff series by Dirk, Wade, Durant, Kyrie, Parker, Garnett, AD and Joker

Meanwhile, Jordan outplayed Bird, Isiah, Magic, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Payton, and many more.. And he led all teammates by 10-30 ppg in every series