1 vote is better than 0... Pau was a 1x all-star - he was literally nothing before joining Kobe and becoming perennial All-NBA (just like Pippen, Klay and Parker after they won titles).

And Jamison was overkill to really drive the point home because we already have Bosh and Love, were who were clear-cut better than Pau.

So the facts remain that Kobe won easily with Pau, while Lebron failed with similar 1 or 2x all-stars like Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo or Hughes, and then needed Pau-level guys at THIRD option... So it's quite clear that Lebron's weaker brand of ball needs more talent, but still generates weak chemistry regardless of cast and therefore perennial losers regardless of cast.

Past-prime Kobe???... C'maaaaan.... Kobe was basically money in his prime if you gave him an all-star, which is much better than Lebron's many debacles in his prime, such as 3 losses with multiple all-star teammates, record losses, goat chokes, or losing 4 straight 4th quarter leads to get swept, or losing as a -700 favorite as 1st option, and many more embarrassments with all-star teammates in his prime.

No, it isn't... Lebron, Westbrook, Luka and Harden can never dominate while having a high assisted rate (off-ball), just like John Stockton couldn't dominate by mostly dunking.. They just don't have the skillset, which is why no coach has ever run a high ball movement system with these guys.

Phil and Tex just got lucky to have a player that already had a highly-assisted skillset and off-guard.... Infact, MJ had a higher assisted rate before Phil by virtue of having an 80-90% assisted rate at North Carolina, or 80% of his buckets in the 88' 1st Round occurred with 1 or 0 dribbles - let that sink in - he was never off-ball to that extent in the triangle.

Off-guards like Klay or MJ simply have high assisted rates, so they fit in high ball movement systems, while the most dribble-intensive skillsets have high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates in spot-up roles, thereby reducing their assist capacity & ball movement.

Again, Tex and Phil really didn't know sh*t about Jordan's game and thought their system would muzzle his game - they were wrong because they didn't have the bird's eye view that we have that includes the terminology of "assisted rate" - this statistic allows us to get the right perspective on MJ's suitability for the triangle, but Phil and Tex didn't have this, hence their mistaken opinion that the triangle would muzzle his game.. They didn't realize he was perfect for a high ball movement system, but the results proved that he was - he went 6 for 6 almost immediately.

That's my point - coaches can't utilize that skill with Lebron because he doesn't have it - he lacks off-ball ability and high assisted rates to allow a ball movement system.





Phil and Tex simply thought the triangle would muzzle MJ and "get him to pass"

But again, almost no one understood back then (and now) that Jordan's high scoring levels were highly-assisted by teammates, so teammates grew massively and nearly beat a dynasty in 89' before Phil arrived.. Phil simply inherited a skyrocketing team that was on the cusp of the Finals and led by the GOAT, who was already growing everyone massively due to his off-guard/off-ball skillset.





The triangle was 100% unknown to the NBA fan until MJ put it on the map in the 90's.

This is the historical record.. It was a non-descript, funky offense that only 2 or 3 coaches in the world knew about because they invented it and used it at a couple low-level D1 schools.. It never won as a team's primary offense on the NBA level until MJ or his clone won 11 chips with it - then it never won again.

So history is pretty clear on this.. MJ and Kobe are the goats for being able to dominate and win with such an individually-restrictive offense that otherwise no one else could win with and that no one ever heard of before them, or since them..





We don't need MJ's assisted rates anymore than we need Shaq's dunk stats to know that he was a dunker - it would take someone 30 seconds to see that rookie Shaq was a great dunker just like it takes 30 seconds to see that rookie MJ or Klay were great off-ball players and off-guards.

Furthermore, someone did the play-by-play data to show that 80% of his points from his highest-scoring series ever occurred with zero or 1 dribbles in the 88' 1st Round - that reflects an amazing assisted rate.. That doesn't mean the Bulls were supposed to win in 1988 because not every ball movement team wins, but the winningest teams are always ball movement teams (with a highly-assisted leading scorer that allows high ball movement).

The triangle simply moved the ball in a superior way and ran the offense through the high post, so guys were catching the ball in spots where it's hard for the defense to load up on 1 guy - this means the defense has no chance against MJ if they can't load up on him as effectively, so he gets hot easily and forces the defense into dumb double-teams that leave guys open, etc.. it's a snowball effect.. And again, MJ's highly-assisted skillset allowed this kind of ball movement strategy.





No, my voice sounds a lot different.

Ultimately, a high assisted rate/skillset is required from the leading scorer of any dynasty, and a high assisted rate/skillset is required from any elite scorers of a dynasty.. Obviously, this doesn't mean that all teams who have a highly-assisted leading scorer will have a dynasty, but it is a requirement and a common thread in all dynasties.. This makes sense, due to the great fits/chemistry and facilitation of ball movement that highly-assisted players offer to teammates and teams.
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Yeah you always wake up when the dream gets good.

****ing hate it.

Can I wield Thor's hammer for just ten more seconds please.

In addition to the play-by-play data for Jordan's 2 biggest scoring series of his playoff career (posted previously), there's this video produced by the ACC Conference that shows MJ had the same assisted skillset in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F1Hy1IHfqM

NORTH CAROLINA JORDAN (FROM THE ACC VIDEO ABOVE):

"I've become adjusted to the 1-dribble pop-up jumpshot.. That's one of my favorite shots and the turnaround jumper also has to be one of my favorite shots.. Whenever I have my defender in that position, I feel that my scoring ability is a lot better"

^^^ So MJ was a highly-assisted player in college with a great turnaround jumper and 1-dribble pull-up already, which is part of the reason he stormed into the league at 28 ppg and then 37 ppg (goat scorer) in short order.

This highly-assisted skillset would prove to be the foundation that allowed the triangle to be run while still undertaking the goat scoring burden.. It's quite remarkable..

Again, Phil and Tex conflated goat scoring levels with ball-monopolization and figured the equal-opportunity triangle would shut down Jordan's shot volume and turn him into a passer... They actually thought they could do what you're saying and force MJ to change his playing style, but they simply didn't know about or have access to his assisted rate, which would've shown that they hit the jackpot with the kind of highly-assisted, goat scorer that the triangle requires..

Otherwise, if Jordan was a low-assisted ball-dominator like they essentially thought he was, then the triangle would've failed and Phil gets fired, or the more likely scenario is that Phil simply capitulates like every other coach of a ball-dominator and puts the ball in their hands (scuttles the triangle).

By virtue of having a dribbling, ball-domination and low-assisted skillset, guys like Luka, Harden or Lebron don't have off-ball and high-assisted skillsets, aka they stink at high-assisted skills like coming off screens compared to their wheelhouse of low-assisted dribbling & ball-dominant forays.

So it can't be "better for the team" to have the best players switch from skills that they're elite at, to skills they stink at... Bigs like Shaq don't start playing small forward because they stink at it, just like point guards don't start playing off-guard because they stink at it... So MJ's brief switch to point guard isn't the kind of general switch that I'm talking about and the only reason the Bulls were willing to try it briefly is because everyone knew that MJ would be the exception and goat at any position on the floor.

Indeed, he was the goat point guard despite being a 1st-timer at the position and many felt that he had the best post-game in the league by 91', which means that he demonstrated goat ability as a PG, off-guard and post player - this is the goat scoring diversity that produced the best fits and strategic capacity/coaching, which won the most with the least, i.e. produced the best teams ever with the least all-star help ever.






That's my point - coaches can't utilize that skill with Lebron because he doesn't have it - he lacks off-ball ability and high assisted rates to allow a ball movement system, or dynasty/great team that mostly wins for a material stretch, like 5 years.
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It's common knowledge and INTELLIGENCE that michael jordan is a goat-level post player, but it isn't common intelligence that Lebron is:

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Only MJ demonstrated goat ability as an off-guard, point guard and post player - this goat scoring diversity fit with all players and systems to allow the best teams ever with the least all-star help

Should anyone be surprised that the goat brand of ball is winning with Heild

unfolding events continue to support basketball doctrine and bball 101 about ball movement and highly-assisted players producing better chemistry to win with less..

Having a skillset that produces better chemistry to win with less is why Curry is better than Lebron and always has been - I'm glad that I figured this out years ago, albiet late in 2021 (still before Curry won with Wiggins/Poole)
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09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic........ 18 on 38%....... #3 team defense..... lost

89' Pippen vs #1 SRS Cavs........... 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense.... won
97' Pippen vs #4 SRS Heat........... 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense.... won
98' Pippen vs #4 SRS Pacers........ 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense.... won
98' Pippen vs #3 SRS Jazz............. 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense.... won

Lebron can't beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he cannot carry the scoring load vs top teams and needs all-time scoring help.. Otoh, MJ could drop 40 while the ball moves, so he would carry the scoring load vs top teams and win with much less help.





Statistical Facts Regarding Lebron's Inferiority to Jokic, Curry, Kobe, MJ, Bird and Others


At carry-job volume, Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets (low-assisted rate) is too ball-dominant to beat top teams, so he cannot carry the scoring load and needs all-time scoring help... Specifically, in addition to never carrying weak help over top teams (never beating a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), Lebron never carried the scoring load on the championship level, so he never defeated max defensive attention and needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (more help)..

In contrast to Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance and low-assisted skillset, highly-assisted skillsets like jumpshooters or bigs drop 40 while the ball moves, so they maintain sufficient brand at carry-job volumes and therefore beat top teams with less help.... In addition to carrying the scoring load to win with less, the highly-assisted skillsets of bigs and jumpshooters allow great chemistry/teams, aka "dynasties" that mostly win for a material stretch like 5 years.. Accordingly, all the dynasties in history were led by highly-assisted skillsets (Russell, Kareem, MJ, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq), while the perennial losers were low-assisted skillsets, aka ball-dominators (Luka, Oscar, Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, etc).

Ultimately, I'm getting ahead of the game and adding Jokic to my top 10 - my top 13 is ranked in order of the skillsets that produce the best chemistry to produce the best teams and win with less, such as the teams they were given (organically): 1. Jordan 2. Kobe 3. Bird 4. Curry 5. Russell 6. Wilt 7. Kareem 8. Duncan 9. Shaq 10. Jokic 11. Magic 12. Lebron 13. Oscar... If I'm not mistaken, Jokic could become the 1st player to lead the PER/BPM//VORP/WS48 for 5 straight years - he's also making a winner out of Westbrook.
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No one expected Lebron to give up after Year 7 and team-up with opponents thereafter, so stop saying he met every expectation because it's a massive lie.

Giving up on the team that drafted you and deciding to team up with opponents is the DEFINITION of failing expectation, just like being lottery with the East all-star center in 2005, or losing as a -700 favorite in 2009, or having the goat choke in 2011, or losing 7 times with favored rosters (preseason favorite or homecourt), or losing 3 times with multiple all-star teammates, or losing 4 straight 4th quarter leads to get swept, or being lottery in his prime in 2019, or record loss in 2014, or falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser for 6 straight years from 11-16' (except the Allen miracle) - these are all underachieving the expectation!!!

The issue is that Klutch Sports got angry one day on a conference call with the media and famously yelled "Lebron has met every expectation and you will say this on all your sports shows!!!"... And the rest is history - the spineless media got in line and the public was fooled... So enjoy your fraud, but it's pathetic that Lebron's yearly catastrophic losses such as gentlemen sweeps in the WCF or 1st Round are treated like ADDITIONS to a goat case.. It's pure fraud and WWE.

And we know that underachieving the expectation is a skillset issue.. High-scoring point guard skillsets have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, and this weak chemistry underachieves favored rosters as a standard.. The spot-up roles lower teammates' assists, which prevents elite ball movement and team assists - the common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is deficits in team assists.. He simply cannot play a high ball movement brand, so he gets beat BY these brands (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic).

It's always bad to lose with the preseason favorite or homecourt because it's below the goat standard of never losing with the preseason favorite or homecourt.

The problem is that Lebron fans and media don't actually judge him based on the goat standard - they let him drastically underachieve the goat standard and then claim it's somehow "good" (as you stated above), while this lesser caliber adds to his imaginary goat case.

Ultimately, Lebron lost 4 of 7 times as the preseason favorite and 3 more times with homecourt - that's horrible based on the goat standard that you claim Lebron upholds.




^^° your math for Kobe is wrong (he's nearly even with Lebron) and Kobe actually wins when we remove your comparison of 20-year old Kobe to prime Lebron (remove 1999).

But the original point was that Lebron's skillset produces weaker chemistry that underachieves favored talent more often by losing with preseason favorites 4 of 7 years (57%), compared to 3 of 7 for Kobe..

And again, it's really 2 of 6 (33%) for Kobe because Kobe was only 20 years old in 99', so that doesn't count just like you don't count Lebron's lottery seasons at 20 years old with an all-star teammate, or his worst-ever performance in the 07' Finals or 08' ECSF (35% & 6 TO's).

Btw, the examples of "weaker chemistry" that Lebron's skillset produces are lower teammate assists (imposes spot-up roles), many bad fits, zero young player development, zero #1 offenses and of course the underachieving of favored talent (losing incessantly with preseason favorites, homecourt, multiple all-star teammates, etc)

Fun fact. If LeBron had of retired after his time after Miami, he basically has better career stats than Steph has to date.

So, if you selectively select points it looks good?

Anyway the point was that LeBron has overachieved when pre-season favourite. You would have made good money if you had bet on it, which means he's done well. But, I know you struggle with easy concepts.

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No seriously, if you were an alien from outer space looking at these numbers, which guy (Lebron or MJ) would you think was 6-0 in the Finals, and which guy would you think is 4-6?

Career Finals alongside Lebron or MJ

Lebron....... 28 on 48%
Kyrie.......... 28 on 47%
AD.............. 25 on 55%
Wade......... 24 on 47%

Pippen....... 19 on 42%
MJ...............34 on 48%

How did Lebron go 4-6 with so much more help than MJ, while MJ went 6-0?

and Lebron had preseason favorites for 7 of the Finals??.. Accordingly, only Lebron's bad chemistry underachieves favored talent such as preseason favorites falling to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (except the Allen miracle).

Based on what standard





^^^ How many ball players in history has that applied to??... That's an extremely low bar for a so-called goat candidate - and therein lies the fraud.

Otoh, the actual goat standard is to never lose with any kind of favored roster such as 1 or 2 seeds, preseason favorites/homecourt advantage, all-star teammates, or in the Finals... Unfortunately, Lebron lost a half dozen times in each of these scenarios.

The lone exceptions for Jordan in the sea of met expectations was 1990 when MJ lost with an all-star teammate, and also the baseball year, which no one counts because he only played 17 games and it was his 2nd sport (his advanced numbers were Wizards-caliber).





No because Jordan basically never lost with any type of favored roster, such as 1 or 2 seeds, preseason favorites, homecourt advantage, all-star teammates, or in the Finals... Otoh, Lebron lost a half dozen times in each of these scenarios...

So when history looks back at Lebron and Jordan, it will show that the high-scoring ball-dominator produced weak chemistry that underachieved favored talent all the time, while the goat 2-point jumpshooter produced goat chemistry that met or overachieved expectation every time...

People forget that the Bulls were nothing in 1989 - Pippen averaged 14 ppg and then 9.7 in the ECF... So what if someone told Tex and Phil right before Phil was hired in 89' that "you guys are about to win 6 chips, two 3-peats and 6 for 6 in the Finals" - would that blow their mind or "meet their expectation", smh

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Regular Season

Hornacek'.... 17.7 PER... 2.9 bpm... 0.153 ws/48... 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay............... 16.4 PER... 0.7 bpm... 0.110 ws/48... 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek'.... 16.5 PER... 3.1 bpm... 0.145 ws/48... 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay............... 14.4 PER... 0.7 bpm... 0.091 ws/48..... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts





Fun fact - Lebron's stats produced possibly the most underachieving rosters of all-time by virtue of a half dozen losses with each of the following - 1 or 2 seeds, preseason favorites/homecourt, all-star teammates, and in the Finals.

Otoh, Curry's stats produced the best chemistry and brand of ball ever, so he overachieved his roster's talent by producing a goat team with a +2800 preseason underdog in 2015.

Furthermore, sidekicks like Wade, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, and AD are all better than Klay, while Jamison, Mo and even Zydrunas aren't that far behind - remember that Hornacek DESTROYS klay (see previous post), so Curry's brand of ball elevated a Mo-level player to Splash Brother status and HOF... MJ did this with Pippen too and many other sidekicks like Pau or Parker became All-NBA after they won - they were elevated to media accolade by the ensuing winning spotlight.
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btw do you guys realize that this guy Wemby thought he was Durant - he isn't and was never going to be - and now it's too late for him to develop into the Kareem or Duncan that he otherwise could've if he hadn't hard-wired in lukewarm guard skills and a soft game - skills that aren't good enough to work at 7 foot 5... Maybe in another generation down the line, but not this one