Quote:
Originally Posted by Thremp
Good luck trying to convince some owner/GM/dongtard of your job security with a printout of conversion rates and some explanation of game theory.
Until that changes or more BBs make more calls like this and they're praised. It will be an uphill battle for mathematical analysis in football.
LOL. The average owner of a football team is way better at math, way way smarter and way, way, way better at game theory than most of you here - it's not even remotely close. Belichick's boss Robert Kraft in particular, if you could somehow get him to bother with internet discussion boards, would easily one of the most insightful posters here. If anyone gets fired for running a mathematically correct, but unpopular play (or a series of them), it would be because the owner realizes that managing PR, player/staff morale, reputation is more important or because the owner had other reasons to fire him and needed a public excuse, not because he doesn't understand the percentages. The latter is a more important reason for coaches to avoid unpopular plays - often you have your job not because you're wanted, but because the owner is too busy or indifferent enough to actively find or create a reason to fire you. A person in a public leadership position cannot easily be fired without such a public excuse (not just for the fans, but for various people within the organization). Thus, by becoming less popular, you're lowering the cost of letting you go. This is important unless you're certain that you're considered an asset.
I love the thought process here though: your decision sometimes disagrees with my extremely crude approximation based on elementary school mathematics, therefore you suck at math and are incapable of thinking. It's no different from a bunch of bar drunks questioning front office decisions made based on a much more sophisticated set of analyses. Granted, coaches get a lot of decisions wrong because they don't have time to run the percentages during the game and their mind is overwhelmed with other information that they need to consider but they aren't grossly wrong often and they are generally good at maximizing their cognitive abilities. Getting those calls right isn't the only thing he has to do during the game. You absolutely want the coaches to pay most attention to most important things, not things you happen to be able to come close to understanding. This is where a lot of fan analysis goes wrong. The coach's job isn't to get all the obscure decisions right, but to maximize the overall success.
With that said, I think going for it is a no-brainer and questioning it is especially dumb for the reasons stated above. Belichick obviously has way better information about players' physical condition, mindset, motivational anchors, etc and no crude approximation we perform shows the numbers to be grossly in favor of the punt, which is what you need minimally to question a decision like this. Sports journalists as a group produce unbelievably inaccurate criticism because they need to cater to the irrational fan instinct to want to feel superior and to feel like if they were involved in the decision making, somehow things would be better. This instinct largely drives most fans, whether they are armed with elementary knowledge of probability theory or not. Poor, yet excessively critical and arrogant journalism supports this instinct in two ways - if you agree, you get to feel superior to GMs and coaches. If you disagree, you get to feel superior to the management and journalists - by mixing the two groups, it's easy to forget that sports journalists don't run sports franchises, nor is their poor analysis representative of actual decision making processes. Modern sports franchises are run very well and most obviously poor decisions are due to personnel management and organization failures leading to conflicts of interest and have very little to do with people at the top not understanding simple math.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PartyGirlUK
So are you saying that the coaches would actually know that going for it won the game 10% more than punting, and would still punt, or could they just be ignorant?
10% is a huge, huge, huge edge. Put me in an NFL team and let me keep making +10% plays that the crowd won't like, real good chance I'm superstar coach in 5 years imo.
It's a big edge but it's also not noticeable. You're not gonna have a chance to make that many 10% edges plays, where the edge is largely determined through simple statistical analysis without deep understanding of the game. If you have 4 of those every season, you'd add two expected wins in 5 years. This isn't even remotely close to being noticeable, unless it's combined with many other edges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vixticator
how about this argument...
there's no way belichick knew the %'s before he made the call to go for it... or what i mean is this specific situation is not trivial to go for it and the EV is small... so you should punt because there is no way to explain that this is the right move to the players who have almost certainly never seen a coach go for it in this spot ever before and conventional wisdom is obv punt... do you really want players thinking you cost the game?
This really doesn't matter as much if you're Belichick, won a bunch of super bowls and had a 16-0 season recently, etc. Football players also see a lot of weird playcalls, know that their coach is smarter than they are and are fairly well-conditioned to trust his reasoning. This would be bigger deal if it was some new coach or some not-so-successful coach who's in danger of losing players' confidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
And those people are successful enough to have a home internet connection, making it highly likely that they are of above average intelligence.
Wow.
This does cut off some idiots, but this being a rather pointless activity (irony here duly noted) does cut off more intelligent people and more importantly, some of the more intelligent thought processes within the person. There's no incentive to be correct here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineX
Yes, there is -- I'm not calling the Belichick decision BAD. What I'm saying is that the mathematical calculations in this thread prove nothing, because the EVs given are swamped by the nonlinear combination of the uncertainties. With only 5% uncertainty in the probabilities, I just showed that decision given by one set of parameters is statistically indistinguishable from the decision given by a different set. If we call the "null" or default model in this situation punting, we can't reject it on math alone. Appealing to Belichick's instincts and intuition as a Hall of Fame football coach is a much better justification. The point is, the call is just not obvious.
This, however, does make it a no-brainer. You need a much stronger justification if you disagree with the playcalling and aren't equipped with the football knowledge and instinct, not to mention understanding of the particulars than if you agree with it. Of course, a lot of people have this backward - their intuition based on subpar understanding and horribly incomplete information is the correct decision unless HoF coaches can clearly justify the decisions in whatever terms they can understand.
Furthermore, I haven't seen any argument in favor of punting here that's based on the particulars of the situation. Nearly every deviation from the norm here, appears to push it more strongly in favor of going for it. Pretty much every argument in favor of punting appears to be based on broader generalization, as opposed to being based on a more narrower interpretation of the particular situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuyV
IDK, most business managers/executives take the low risk route with various decisions - including hiring - for the same reason. Many of them are smart.
Right - this has to do with incentives, uncertainty, risk management and morale. I would argue the opposite - in business, too many people take too much risk by only addressing popularly perceived risks and underestimating their cost. The cost is almost alway higher than anticipated when things fail. Most people who complain about decision makers not taking enough risk usually do so because they instinctively don't see themselves personally bearing the cost when things fail - the rest is rationalization based on how if only others made decisions that you like because it benefits you personally or agrees with your perception, everyone else would be better off too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bschr04
There are so many situations in life where people end up gambling more in their quest not to gamble.
This is very true. As with the average fan in this situation, people aren't always good at understanding the overall risk picture. And knowing the probabilities doesn't change this under most circumstances either - the average math professor is probably no better at prioritizing his life this way than the average housewife. Balancing and understanding hidden risks is extremely difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
This whole episode proves beyond any doubt that most people, even very successful people, are ****ing ******ed and have no natural instinct towards critical thinking.
This is the equivalent of some inner city kid noticing some billionaire misusing latest street slang and coming to the conclusion that most billionaires are idiots. Because in his world, being able to use language correctly and showing good understanding of that culture is a sign of intelligence. No one has the ability to get everything right. Success is often about getting important things right and leaving other things to fall into places. Any successful person will therefore have flaws that unsuccessful people will notice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triumph36
this. i'm reminded of david sklansky's gem of a quote from a. alvarez's 'the biggest game in town', he said this in 1980:
"I [can't work in business because I] was always being told what to do by incompetent people, and I hated it. The world is full of idiots, and I can't handle it."
LOL - this is the business equivalent of "I need to move up to where my raise get respected." It's quite hilarious he doesn't see the irony here. The business world being full of idiots makes being successful in business harder in the exact same sense that a poker game being full of idiots makes making money in the game harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCollins
It's quite incredible. I'm in an email thread with some friends of mine, all of whom are incredibly smart and even critical thinkers of some sort. 1 is a Lawyer, 1 got 1600 SATs, 1 is football nut and 800 math SAT. Way above your typical sports mouthbreathers. First email was how horrible the decision was, and LOL Belichick. I show them the numbers (came up with on my own, and were even more slanted towards Indy than the website linked here), and it still came up as an easy decision. All three are telling me that the stats mean nothing, it was all emotion, and Indy scores 100% of the time after they fail when going for it. You cannot give them the ball on the 28, no matter what. "Even if it is 4th and 1 inch, and you will make it 95% of the time?" Yes, even then it's foolish, you cannot take that chance.
Absolutely amazing what a different mindset there is out there. We will never understand it. And even if they are smart people, that mindset of being able to gamble when it makes sense just is not there. People do not want to make decisions that could result in bad things, and will make alternate worse decisions, as long as the bad consequences are more "indirect".
You post in the politics forum, read that stuff every day and this sort of irrationality is "absolutely amazing" to you? Btw, if you consider having few cognitive blocks of this sort (as in, inability to apply knowledge correctly due to emotions under a variety of real life circumstances) a critical measure of intelligence, I think you'd be surprised what sorts of people would do well in those.