Mitch was great

"You can't hit him, but he might hit you."

Hahahaha. One season I remember he had more walks than innings pitched.

Oblique strains say hi.

He wasn't a reliever, but this was a literal career-ending HR: Rick Ankiel.

So what? He had better numbers than Lidge in almost every category last year, and has a better a track record as well.

I'd rather have Lidge than Wagner.

Lidge is younger, and more talented.

Riveria, Wagner, Eckersley.. They have all gone through periods like this.

Brad Ausmus said it best when he said "There are 29 other teams in the league that would love to have Brad Lidge. Luckily, we're the ones that have him."

Umm, I don't recall him saying that and I actually highly doubt he would.

There were some in the media that called him that, and based on the incredible way that he was dominating, it was completely justified.

Wagner is a severe injury risk with a huge propensity to collapse. I'm not taking a kid who is under six feet tall and throws 100 mph. As cool as it is to watch him shatter bats and scare the [censored] out of hitters, that is not sustainable.

not saying itis at all. all i'm saying is that he was a better pitcher last year and for his career, injury risks aside.

Your boy Wagner blew 9 saves (including 5 in a row) in 2000.

Not to mention his propensity to blow the most crucial of games.

Lidge has been more successful thus far than Wagner was when he was at this stage of his career.

Wagner is not my boy. I'm not even a Phillies/Mets fan. And what about Lidge in the big games last year? He gave up runs in two World Series games.

As for the Astros, I never saw a weaker display of baseball in my life. Only proves how weak the NL as a whole is I guess, with two consecutive AL sweeps.

One more thing.

2006 thus far..

Lidge - 2 blown saves in 9 opportunities.

Wagner - 2 blown saves in 7 opportunities.

Sample size, not to mention that all 3 of the runs that Wagner allowed today were unearned.

And Wagner has a ERA of 0.82 while Lidge's is barely under 7. Your arguments are awful.

Your argument, again, is stupid, and you can't argue that Lidge is better than Wagner this year.

ERA is not as important for a reliever as for a starter. ERA's can be inflated by just a couple of bad outings.

If you think that ERA is so important, I guess you would have to agree that Clemens deserved the Cy Young more than Carpenter did last year no?

The only thing that matters is that Lidge has gotten the job done 7 out of 9 times. Wagner has gotten the job done 5 out of 7.

That's not the only thing that matters, you nit. Haven't you ever heard of sample size. Wagner has a WHIP of .90. Lidge's is 1.80. Lidge has allowed twice the number of baserunners as Wagner has this year, and it's through sheer luck that he hasn't blown more saves. It's also important to point out that Wagner has been used in more one-run lead situations than Lidge this year.

You lose.

JOA, sic this guy.

these guys have pitched in games other than save situations. Lidge gave up a bomb in the top of the 10th against washington and didn't get a loss cause his team bailed him out in the bottom of the inning.

Umm, I really don't go in for dick swinging contests or anything. I'm happy we've got Lidge instead of Wagner. If you would have followed the Astros as long as I have, you might understand.

I'm entirely unsurprised that an Astros fan would be unable to differentiate between a gap of one point or so and a gap of seven points. You people are honestly some of the stupidest fans in sports, completely blinded towards anything that doesn't totally favor the Astros.

EDIT: can't call someone stupid and have a spelling error in the same sentence.

No, no, Berkie, see it don't work that way. You're the one who started it first and the funniest part is that I'm not even a Mets or Phillies fan! I just hate seeing some homer like you rip on a pitcher and claim that another guy is better when he really isn't. RunDownHouse is right, you Astros fans really are blind.

This was discussed in last year's NLCS thread. At the time, I thought the homer wouldn't be so bad as long as the Astros still made it to the World Series. But, it's always hard to tell how that kind of psychological blow will be handled by any particular player.

Last year's NLCS thread.

By the way, I linked to the post where I called the homer just seconds before it happened. Too bad I spelled "hire" wrong.

Sorry Aces, but this is one of the worst arguments I've ever read on this forum. Saves are completely situational, and blown saves are a far better indicator of effectiveness. Additionally, your 'at this stage in his career' arguments are irrelevent because Wagner's gone on to do so much more than any statistical prediction would suggest Lidge will do, mainly because closers don't last as long as Wagner has.

Also for the record, I'd have given Clemens the Cy last year, Johnson the year before.

I started it? Excuse me? Who brought up Wagner? It certainly wasn't me. I didn't rip on Wagner at all. He's a good closer. But Lidge is better. You have you're own opinion and that's fine. You're allowed to be wrong.

And I never assumed you to be a Mets or a Phillies fan. It's obvious you're just someone who really doesn't know what you're talking about. I wonder exactly how many games you've actually seen these guys pitch in?

Aces,
Remember that game last year down the stretch when Biggio cranked a three-run homer off of Wags to win the game in Philly? That game was cool. I don't think Wagner recovered from that bomb to his good friend, for the duration of 2005. That hit pretty much burried the Phills last year.

I Biggio.

It just has become blatantly obvious as-of-late. Lidge does not prioritize throwing inside. I don't care who you are, if you are getting 96mph fastballs in on your hands, you aren't going to hit the ball well (See 2005 NLCS Game 6 Oswalt v. Cards). And if you add an 86 mph slider low and away to the mix, your (the batter's) results will be even worse. Even if you turn on it, hehe, you'll pretty much pull it foul everytime.

Andy Fox pointed something out that I didn't bother typing in here, because I didn't think it was as obvious, but I suppose now that it was. (I often forget that there are people in here more knowledgeable about baseball than I ) Jeff Kent's sac fly was on a pitch about 4 inches off the plate. He had time to fling his bat out, and get the job done.

NOBODY hits that pitch deep enough to right to get the sac fly, if they have to protect the inside of the plate.

Once he starts doing this, he should get his mentality back into place, which should allow his mechanics to fall back into place. I think his mechanics (walks) are a function of him forcing the issue (See Brett Favre 2005). Once he gets back into the hitters' kitchen, he will not need to force things anymore. I think there is at least a 95% chance he gets back to his old nasty ways.

Get used to this.

BTW, this thread is pure awfulness start to finish.