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Old 12-07-2012, 04:35 PM   #7301
aislephive
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Originally Posted by Nootka View Post
it just keeps coming back to my view that there is no such thing as "fairness" in any of this. the side with the most leverage will get the better deal from their perspective. i couldn't care less about the ultimate resolution of the revenue split or make-whole issues. the only things that matter to me are getting the deal done so i can watch some hockey and how the new terms will affect my team.
That's pretty difficult to speculate on from the outside though. Both sides want a deal done badly but only under their terms. The owners have some leverage, of course, but not as much as they'd like to believe as they're finding out now.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:45 PM   #7302
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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43 was a clear signal that they wanted 50 based on the status quo of 57. i said so at the time.
That's irrelevant. They don't get to offer 43, the later claim that they wanted 50-50 all along without me calling BS that's all. The owners are not just spinning things, they're basically lying about a bunch of stuff IMO. Like this claim that they just keep giving and giving and giving and giving without getting anything in return, it's enough to make me vomit.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:46 PM   #7303
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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it just keeps coming back to my view that there is no such thing as "fairness" in any of this. the side with the most leverage will get the better deal from their perspective. i couldn't care less about the ultimate resolution of the revenue split or make-whole issues. the only things that matter to me are getting the deal done so i can watch some hockey and how the new terms will affect my team.
Now this I agree with. Well, 99% of it anyway.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:47 PM   #7304
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Personally, I was kinda hoping the pandering to the middle class would end after the American election.

I want my Dennis Wideman back. What the **** guys...
Oh jesus, he's gone off the deep-end now gentlemen!
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:49 PM   #7305
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Oh jesus, he's gone off the deep-end now gentlemen!
we knew that when he turned down flyersgirl.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:55 PM   #7306
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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we knew that when he turned down flyersgirl.
Uhoh, here we go again ...
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:56 PM   #7307
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Nootka, I realized that my second wasn't clear. The PR spin from the owners has been, Fehr is an idiot who won't move in anything. While if you look at the proposals, Fehr hasn't been as combative as he could have been. For some reason, finances and economics of the league are not being discussed, nor any sort of de-linkage. Once you scratch the surface, the league is looking worse and worse.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:29 PM   #7308
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Why do you think it's irrelevant exactly? Should the upper hand in negotiations go to the side which sent the first joke of a CBA proposal?
The owners have the upper hand and will every time there are such negotiations. The average player in the league plays, what, 3-4 years? Very close to 100% of the players will personally much be better off conceding with rollbacks etc. than giving up the year. Even if the season is played and contracts are paid out at 60% for (2012-)2013 and there are rollbacks most guys will be several hundred thousand dollars better off, millions for some players.

In contrast, the owners are much more cohesive group. Even though there is a fair bit of turnover, improving things financially for future owners will make them money when they sell.

I showed with some basic net-present value calculations that the owners are better off even taking the players' first offer than burning a season, but it's still true that they care a lot less than the players do about losing a season. In these negotiations the side that cares more about the long-term future and less about the nearer term will have the upper hand in negotiations. That's the owners.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:30 PM   #7309
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Holy cow, reading the comments on TSN ... must be internet day at the Association for ******ed Canadians.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:39 PM   #7310
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Holy cow, reading the comments on TSN ... must be internet day at the Association for passionate hockey fans.
FYP
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:09 PM   #7311
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

I don't think "passionate fans" can explain the tsn comments. I know lots of passionate hockey fans and very few of them are as pro-Owners/anti-NHLPA as the tsn comments are.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:27 PM   #7312
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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The owners have the upper hand and will every time there are such negotiations.
You forgot one exception.
The NFL exception. Where the owners are making so much money that they really don't want to miss any time.

I see a time coming where the NFL strikes to get something back from the owners. Health concerns, scheduling, if not money.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:43 PM   #7313
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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I don't think "passionate fans" can explain the tsn comments. I know lots of passionate hockey fans and very few of them are as pro-Owners/anti-NHLPA as the tsn comments are.
Lots of ant-NHLPA sentiment up here this time.

Economy's still tough, people are struggling to make ends meet and they're pissed off. Regardless of whether or not they're justified in taking out their frustration on the PA, I think they're fed up with #ThePlayers pandering for sympathy just a little bit more.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:47 PM   #7314
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

meh, casualfan is always anti-player during work stoppages in sport

it's just easier to be MAD about the millionaire getting paid to play a game, than the poor billionaire businessman who can't make an honest go of it bc of his greedy, ungrateful subjects
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:23 PM   #7315
Geddy Lee
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Not really sure that's true...

In any case, tell us how you really feel about the business elite involved in North American pro sports
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:50 PM   #7316
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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meh, casualfan is always anti-player during work stoppages in sport

it's just easier to be MAD about the millionaire getting paid to play a game, than the poor billionaire businessman who can't make an honest go of it bc of his greedy, ungrateful subjects
I think you're way off.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:58 PM   #7317
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Originally Posted by Geddy Lee View Post
In any case, tell us how you really feel about the business elite involved in North American pro sports
they're gentlemen and scholars

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Originally Posted by Ketter View Post
I think you're way off.
on what part?
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:12 PM   #7318
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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cwicemvp - None of that addresses the point that offering those huge contracts right before crying poor in the CBA negotiations has an effect on how those negotiations go. How large an effect is debatable - but its there.
I see your point. I dunno if those deals are going to overtly effect their ability to negotiate an agreement, since honoring them (in theory) would be +EV for both players and GMs. Just not sure where the hostility springs from on either side. Players obviously want previous contracts honored, but that's a union-wide platform regardless of what was signed before Sep. 15. Also, rollbacks are a given, and the opportunity to move toward the abyss with your club 'on the hook' for 7 years' salary instead of 1 should be something those players are happy about.

Those who signed new contracts under the gun face a simple fate; their deals are either rolled back, or honored. If they hadn't signed, they lose the free opportunity to have the deal carry-over, and many are left without any claim to contract stability beyond the lockout. Perhaps the owners' 'crying poor,' after signing the deals had an adverse effect on negotiations, but I'm still happy I signed the extension if I'm one of the players. So long as there's an amnesty clause and new contracts are held to 5-years, the owners are presented with a very small burden to honor these deals.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:18 PM   #7319
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

lol Gary Bettman
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:35 PM   #7320
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

My FB etc has been very casualfan omg players so rich etc. Currently in line to get new Jets year one book by local sports beat writer signed by Claude Noel. Prob about 50 ppl in front of me
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:45 PM   #7321
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

So how would the current deal effect Parise and Suter per say that signed 13 year deals?

Would the deals be limited to 5 years or would the value of the contract just go down?

From a fans point of view the Owners current deal seems better for the league? ?
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:15 AM   #7322
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Seems time for me come clean with MY Flyergirls story. Even if it's just to show Geddy it could be worse. Albeit this was 1995. She was short, cute, great hair and LOVED the Flyers and hockey. She grew up in Prince Albert and was a huge Chris Phillips fan. She was also a "yeller" in the stands. That should have been my first clue. Her big fav was Eric of course. I wasn't even allowed to laugh when Stevens came on the ice let alone make jokes about Eric. She would seriously get mad. lol After she tried to con her way into half my house and barely missed me with a fork stab I'd had enough craziness and like any self respecting GOCB I sent her packing. I think we now have the overwhelming data to support the fact that Flyergirls are nuts.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:46 AM   #7323
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"Great hair" means she was either fat or built like a 10 year old boy I guess? If "great hair" is your third positive thing, damn son.

Anyway, good story, lol Philly
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:09 AM   #7324
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Well, it's like they always say - when you come to a fork in the relationship, dodge it.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:12 AM   #7325
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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And surely the roster size and dynamics of the actual sport need to be taken in consideration, right?

Kinda preoccupied at the moment but that was the first thing that popped into my mind - the intrinsic value of a Manny Malhotra-esque periphery player to his team's success has to be exponentially greater than a Brian Scalabrine...so that would be reflected in wage distribution I think...right?

Again, please don't crucify me, just trying to verbalize the first stuff that came into my head.
Manny Malhotra to Brian Scalabrine isn't a good comparison. Manny Malhotra to somebody like Taj Gibson or Tony Allen is probably better.

I go back and forth on Fehr's NBA comparison.
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