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Old 10-19-2012, 09:51 AM   #5601
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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i disagree - the fan bases in the smaller markets are much more tenuous. they might find that they don't miss hockey and won't come back. not the case in canada and the big markets in the US - there's plenty of fans willing to pay in those cities. so the bigger teams are willing to crush a season if it means more long-term revenues - remember, the narrative here is that everything the owners get from the players in this negotiation only increases what they can get during the next one.

basically every % of revenue clawed back from players is equal to 1.1 million per year per team, and that could go up significantly if league revenues keep growing as they have.

geddy: i'm sorry, i didn't mean to come off like such a dick, but man, it upsets me when the small markets are blamed for this one - they are going to get steamrolled if the league loses a season. and it's going to be basically for naught for them.
I agee as those teams are all in the USA and warm ckimates mainly. If you lose 2000-3000 fans in Winnipeg or Edmonton you have waiting lists for Season tickets. That fan you may have got because the Coyotes got in the playoffs will not care as much about the Seaon gone. He will be tough to get back.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:27 AM   #5602
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Nootka: I disagree with your assessment - I don't think what the players agree to has been offered yet by either side. There is a compromise between Fehr's offer #3 and what the NHL offered earlier this week, but the NHL is not willing to find that compromise.
not sure what we disagree about. i agree with everything you said there, except maybe the last clause.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:52 AM   #5603
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

One of these things is not like the other ones...

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Old 10-19-2012, 12:14 PM   #5604
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Brent Sopel out scores Nail Yakupov head to head. Clearly the kid is overrated.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:48 PM   #5605
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Big signing. Jay McClement signs with the same team as John Erskine in the Kingston Men's Hockey League Div 1.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:07 PM   #5606
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

****ing. sandbaggers.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:13 PM   #5607
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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****ing. sandbaggers.
LOS ANGELES KINGS
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:15 PM   #5608
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

outstanding
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:16 PM   #5609
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Goddamn. I wish all of SE liked hockey so they could appreciate how genius this is.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:05 PM   #5610
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

so Triumph, your contention is that this thing is being driven by teams like the TML who are like "well we made $100m in profit last year, but i'd really like to make $110m, and am willing to axe an entire season again to make it happen"? and why, bc of which owners are shown walking out of these meetings?

i find it REALLY hard to believe that the TML, Habs, NYR, Philly, Van, Chi, etc wouldn't be happy enough to take a 5-7% win and call it a day. it seems much more likely to me that the ones causing the problem are the teams that are thinking "well even with a 5-7% win my team still might not make money unless we're REALLY good*, so why not go for even more bc we can probably get more".

* - save for significant revenue sharing
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:06 PM   #5611
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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so Triumph, your contention is that this thing is being driven by teams like the TML who are like "well we made $100m in profit last year, but i'd really like to make $110m, and am willing to axe an entire season again to make it happen"? and why, bc of which owners are shown walking out of these meetings?
I would say its the exact opposite. Toronto and NY Rangers would play today under the current CBA.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:10 PM   #5612
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Old 10-19-2012, 02:17 PM   #5613
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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I would say its the exact opposite. Toronto and NY Rangers would play today under the current CBA.
yeah i agree obv

lolForbes estimates that the TML, Habs, & NYR made $171m last year
Vancouver & Edmonton made $41m
and the other 25 teams lost $86m

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbade...snt-have-them/

i'm guessing that the majority of the 25 are the ones pushing this thing, but T thinks it's the big-5 being greedy? i don't buy it...
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:32 PM   #5614
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

and i mean, look at the year-by-year estimations for the TML:

2002 - $24.2m
2003 - $13.8m
2004 - $14.1m
2005 - lockout
2006 - $41.5m
2007 - $52.7m
2008 - $66.4m
2009 - $78.9m
2010 - $82.5m
2011 - $81.8m

ok the last lockout was very, very good for the big teams. why? it limited their costs through the salary cap. now there was no pressure to spend $80m+ on players to be competitive. it you suck, oh well...wait. this lockout will be very good for them too, as the owners are sure to secure a victory or some sort. the rich will get even richer. (unless they lose their winnings to revenue sharing)

throw in the fact that Rogers-Bell now own the TML, which means that in addition to the NBC Sports games that TSN airs, those two companies have the regional TV rights for all of the 7 Canadian teams (not to mention an extensive national schedule, plus playoff rights). i can't imagine that they would be too happy to miss a lot of games here, having just bought in for $1.32 billion.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:09 PM   #5615
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Re: Bettman, ya I suppose he's good at his job in terms of making his bosses more money. Just pretty sad that that's the goal of a pro sports commissioner, to torpedo 2 seasons in 7 yrs so that Jeremy Jacobs and his brethren can make an extra $20m/season.

Also, at least other sports like NFL and MLB swallowed their salt water and came out on the other side with relative labor peace. The NHL just does this crap every 6 yrs, why can't they get it right? If what Triumph says is true wrt this having nothing to do with small market teams, then they're not dealing with economic constraints (league record revenue). I guess I'll just plead ignorance on this one, I don't fully understand why the owners can't get the system they want. Are NHL owners just greedier than in other sports? Now they want another 6 yr deal, so they can do what? Lock 'em out for a full season again in 2018 to squeeze out another 15%? To get back on track a bit, the job of the commissioner should be to at least find some semblance of relative labor peace while making his bosses their money. Bettman has clearly failed hard at that.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:16 PM   #5616
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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To get back on track a bit, the job of the commissioner should be to at least find some semblance of relative labor peace while making his bosses their money. Bettman has clearly failed hard at that.
In a perfect world, sure. Problem is his job is to represent the owners, and if he doesn't do what he's told then they'll find someone else.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:17 PM   #5617
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Bell and Rogers are so big I bet they've forgotten they even own the Toronto Maple Leafs. They are too busy hosing 35million Canadians out of $50/month for HOME PHONE SERVICE.

**** BELL AND ROGERS **** YOU LARGE MEDIA CONGLOMERATES YOU'RE RUINING EVERYTHING
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:19 PM   #5618
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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and i mean, look at the year-by-year estimations for the TML:

2002 - $24.2m
2003 - $13.8m
2004 - $14.1m
2005 - lockout
2006 - $41.5m
2007 - $52.7m
2008 - $66.4m
2009 - $78.9m
2010 - $82.5m
2011 - $81.8m

ok the last lockout was very, very good for the big teams. why? it limited their costs through the salary cap. now there was no pressure to spend $80m+ on players to be competitive. it you suck, oh well...wait. this lockout will be very good for them too, as the owners are sure to secure a victory or some sort. the rich will get even richer. (unless they lose their winnings to revenue sharing)

throw in the fact that Rogers-Bell now own the TML, which means that in addition to the NBC Sports games that TSN airs, those two companies have the regional TV rights for all of the 7 Canadian teams (not to mention an extensive national schedule, plus playoff rights). i can't imagine that they would be too happy to miss a lot of games here, having just bought in for $1.32 billion.


Worse they get the more money they make
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:34 PM   #5619
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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In a perfect world, sure. Problem is his job is to represent the owners, and if he doesn't do what he's told then they'll find someone else.
But that's what I'm saying, why is NHL the only sport where owners don't give a s*** about lasting labor peace? Why is it that owners settle on a system that avoids work stoppages in every other major sport except hockey?

I really feel like a whole season is in jeopardy again and I just find it crazy that's their (Bettman/owners) play.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:36 PM   #5620
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Does the plight of a small market team in baseball or football even in the same order of magnitude as hockey?

Seems like comparing hockey to american sports played in America isn't a good comparison.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:43 PM   #5621
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Does the plight of a small market team in baseball or football even in the same order of magnitude as hockey?

Seems like comparing hockey to american sports played in America isn't a good comparison.
But people ITT are telling me the plight of the small market teams has nothing to do with the lockout. In fact, as Triumph points out, these extended lockouts must hurt small market teams more than they hurt the big market teams.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:45 PM   #5622
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Originally Posted by 72off View Post
so Triumph, your contention is that this thing is being driven by teams like the TML who are like "well we made $100m in profit last year, but i'd really like to make $110m, and am willing to axe an entire season again to make it happen"? and why, bc of which owners are shown walking out of these meetings?

i find it REALLY hard to believe that the TML, Habs, NYR, Philly, Van, Chi, etc wouldn't be happy enough to take a 5-7% win and call it a day. it seems much more likely to me that the ones causing the problem are the teams that are thinking "well even with a 5-7% win my team still might not make money unless we're REALLY good*, so why not go for even more bc we can probably get more".

* - save for significant revenue sharing
I guess you're stunned that companies making money are interested in making more money. Look, they're not going to jettison the whole season, that is rhetoric. They looked at the NBA lockout and said - why not us? The NBA lockout - did that produce any serious fan rancor? No - everyone acknowledges that the start of the NBA season is mostly nonsense anyway, people came back as far as I know. Ditto the NHL, especially in the US where it's overshadowed by real football and the start of the World Series.

They're doing it for the next CBA, and the next one, and the next one - the more they take this time, the less they'll have to take next time, and the less they'll have to take next time, etc. But they're the teams paying out the most in salary and they would like to pay out less. When have you heard Bettman talking about small market teams this time around? Have you heard him trot out something like the Levitt Report? Of course not.

So yeah, TML will lose $20M or whatever in revenue this time, but they will make it up and then some over the course of this CBA, plus the next one.

EDIT: Devin, yes, in baseball, although those markets would become more robust if the team were good, with some exceptions. But Tampa Bay struggles to halfway fill its building even during pennant races - that doesn't sound familiar to you?
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:50 PM   #5623
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Triumph...no, I really don't follow baseball at all. I know small market steams can "struggle", but I didn't know what their definition of struggle was.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:52 PM   #5624
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

Football is unique because they split all the TV revenue which accounts for a huge chunk of total revenue. The split from tv guarantees every team at least breaks even.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:52 PM   #5625
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Re: Bettman Lockout III Thread (aka NHL Offseason: Now & Forever)

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Triumph...no, I really don't follow baseball at all. I know small market steams can "struggle", but I didn't know what their definition of struggle was.
What I meant by familiar wasn't testing your knowledge of baseball, but rather indicating that there are hockey teams that are similar. Baseball I think has heavier revenue sharing than hockey and a way larger salary disparity even when you take the Yankees out of the equation.
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