First off, I don't really care about their ability to host a Winter Classic. My contention was with respect to you calling them a garbage market.

Secondly, if you're basing your theory of St. Louis' transition from top-tier market to garbage on their expenditures alone, it'd probably be a good idea to provide some context. Yes, they were media darlings for their revolving door roster transactions for much of the 90's. But the kind of activity seen under Caron and Keenan typically results in some headaches, and sometimes the impact isn't immediate. The Blues franchise the Lauries inherited from Michael Shanahan was an ever-growing mess, and the franchise Dave Checketts effectively saved from the Lauries was even worse, hemorrhaging millions everywhere. He did a damn fine job running an austerity-based franchise that stayed in St. Louis until he could find an appropriate buyer - and I think they've found one in Tom Stillman's group.

Third, attendance is still a measure. Is it a be-all-end-all measure? No, it needs context. Is it an important measure? Yes. You can buy $10 tickets to Coyotes games on the reg, and still no one goes, because that market sucks. Just because tickets are cheap doesn't mean people will go. Perhaps what the attendance and revenue figures should suggest to Blues ownership is that there's an opportunity to increase margins without driving fans away from the rink.

Even though there's a reasonably strong correlation between gate revenues and quality of market, it's not immune to an outlier or two and I think it's very unfair to a smaller market like St. Louis if you dismiss them as garbage because they can't charge Air Canada Centre prices.

plus most markets can probably host a 1-off event like the Winter Classic just fine

ticket prices can be whatever, it'll sell out pretty much anywhere

but i do agree that the league will only take it certain places, or involve certain teams, if they're like really good

Wow. Why so nasty? You're the one who said they would never do that...not me.

I happen to disagree with you that they would never ship it to MIN, STL or DEN. But that really doesn't have to be a big deal.

Exactly. Which is why STL or DEN would do just fine with it. STL would totally thrive with it actually. Both would thrive with it actually. No worries there. And certainly Minnesota too.

Bringing the classic to Minnie or Denver or St. Louis or wherever else simply is not THAT outrageous. Minnie is 15th overall market-size, which isn't exactly gigantic but it's hardly teeny. And they aren't really that much bigger than Denver (18th) or St. Louis (19th). Buffalo checks in at 54th by the way. Pittsburgh is 25th.

http://www.arbitron.com/home/mm001050.asp

MIN, DEN, STL all have biggish stadiums with multiple major-league sports teams. MIN and DEN have all 4 of the major sports covered while STL has 3 out of the 4.

(*disclaimer: for purposes of my rankings from that link I disregarded Long Island/Nassau which I consider part of the gigantic NYC market...and also Puerto Rico)

Personally, I would rather see it in a Canadian city. Now whether the NHL would go THAT route I have no idea. Can simply do a second outdoor event for Canada instead of giving them the New Year's Day slot.

Minnesota would be an aesthetic slam dunk for a Winter Classic.

I also think it's an event that can help reinvigorate a flailing market to an extent and I wouldn't be surprised to see it used as such in the future.

Triumph is just being sassy because he knows New Jersey will never get a Winter Classic.

the reason attendance figures are useless is because they measure tickets that are distributed, not sold. teams inflate the attendance figures all the time to give the illusion of demand. gate revenue is what matters, and it should not be conflated with attendance figures.

But again, that's context, and I said it's a measurement that requires context. It's not completely useless.

Wow that is an ******* move

**** u nhl

Seems like a dick move, but those are benefits typically reserved for employees of a company - as far as I know, they're currently unemployed.

I think they can all afford braces for their ****ing kids.

The one place I always wanted to see the Winter Classic is the Horseshoe in Columbus. Filling a stadium that big would be awesome.

Well, it should be even awesome than that this year (if they have it) since it's to be held at the Big House in Michigan which has a bigger seating capacity than the Horseshoe.

Yes, I'm aware. I'm referring to whether they give Canada the New Year's slot (which they should) or whether it would just have to be another Heritage Classic like before.

If there is a lock-out is the Winter Classic at the Big House moved to next year?

I don't think it's a dick move at all. They're not paying them. Why would they insure them?

All these players are going off to play in the KHL and Europe, etc. Why should the NHL pay for any injuries they sustain over there?

I wouldn't be shocked to see it go there now that they have an outdoor stadium - would've been an issue in years past. Well, that and that the Wild have zero national cachet. If they turn out to be decent they might actually get it. But I think we'll see a return to a city that's already had one. New York will not be getting one anytime soon, and they've mostly exhausted the best spots otherwise.

What if a player's kid or wife needs a root canal and crowns? That whole procedure will cost close to $3000.

Has the word 'cachet' made a return since I've been away from the states?

Tr is right. St Louis is a garbage market. First of all selling out the WC venue is a part of the deal, but ticket prices is the other factor in this. Pittsburgh/Philly/Boston all had an astronomical gate. You'd have to do a lot to match that in StL.

Secondly, you have to sell the game nationally for all the onetime sponsors. When is the last time StL (or Denver for that matter) made it to NBC? Compare that to an actual non-canadian hockey market.

Finally, I'd be surprised if hbo execs aren't slipping hints to bettmsn at what they have in store for the series when teams are being selected. Following backes and tj oshie around is probably not what they have wet dreams about.

White - Oh gee, how can a player who received an NHL salary last year afford something out of pocket that might cost $3k?

I seriously can't tell whether you are being genuine or not.

Come gather 'round, owners, it's high time, ye hear!
'Bout a hero, named Bettman, and a devil, named Fehr
We'll wait 'til they fold, the old and the rich
We'll fight to the death and make the fans bitch
'Cause we'll sit day and night, in the big office towers
They have the product, but we have, the power!

Ummm, no they wouldn't. (and honestly, BOS and PHI couldn't fit THAT many into their ballparks...less than 50k each).

STL would sell-out super easily and it wouldn't be close. Have you guys ever been there or anything? Sounds like maybe you are not from the region and are just making assumptions about a midwestern city and fan-base you perhaps don't know as much about. I wouldn't be saying that at all except for how ludicrous the idea is that STL would have to do a lot more to somehow pull off a Winter Classic.

STL is seriously a pretty good hockey market. I thought everyone kind of knew that but maybe it's some midwestern secret or something. Way better than Nashville, Carolina, etc imo.

STL TV ratings ranked 5th among US based NHL teams.

Blues playoff game drew an 11.0 TV rating this past April....for Game 3 on a Monday night. Rangers drew a 3.3 in NYC on MSG to compare although obviously their 3.3 represents way more total people than an 11.0 does in St. Louis.

The whole 5-game series with SJ had a 9.7 rating.

Blues drew a 5.56 rating for a regular season game in January against VAN in January.

On April 21, the Blues game on FS-Midwest had a 9.0 which was higher than the combined prime-time averages of three major network stations KMOV, KSDK, KTVI (combined 8.4)

http://blues.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=629716


By comparison, Nashville, in a pretty small market and with a good team, had playoff ratings mostly around 4. That's less about 100,000 people watching on TV.

US local ratings for this year. LOL at the Panthers at the bottom. An anemic 3000 households... but 40% improvement!!! Haha.

And while the market-sizes are different, the fact is that slightly more households watch STL games on TV than watch Buffalo Sabres games (44k to 42k). Buffalo has a good fan-base. And so does STL.



TOP 5
--------------------------------- AVG. NO. OF HHS (000s)
Pittsburgh Penguins Root Sports 7.89 92 -9%
Buffalo Sabres MSG 6.55 42 -6%
Boston Bruins NESN 4.72 112 +56%
St. Louis Blues FS Midwest 3.51 44 +14%
Detroit Red Wings FS Detroit 3.48 64 -14%

BOTTOM 5
Los Angeles Kings FS West 0.37 21 -16%
New Jersey Devils MSG Plus 0.34 25 -28%
Anaheim Ducks Prime Ticket 0.30 17 -19%
New York Islanders MSG Plus 0.25 18 -26%
Florida Panthers FS Florida 0.21 3 +40%

Bob,

The only place they can play in St. Louis would be Busch Stadium. There would not be an astronomical difference in seating between CBP or Fenway, and there's absolutely no way they can charge the ticket prices they did in either of those spots. Sure, they could sell it out. Would they make anywhere close to as much money as a more traditional hockey market? No. This is why they are far down the list.