The Denver situation is what I'm sort of referring to by saying he can be effective while being a higher usage lower efficiency guy. I mean he was the best player on a 57 win team with pretty terrible numbers overall.

Yea I'm failing to see how the guy people think is the literal greatest player to ever play basketball is not the immediate number 1 pick in a league with no super team

lebron didnt care for the entire season up until ecf...

He was barely the best player on a 57 win ensemble team that did not perform well in the playoffs

"The Denver situation" was also way, way closer to his prime. The guy is legitimately scared to shoot even layups (because his teammates are so good, I get it)

I'll take Donovan Mitchell($2,621,280).


I think hes by far the most NBA ready player from this loaded draft class. I expect him to be a positive defender from day 1, as both his summer league play(8 steals in one game!) and this tidbit from DraftExpress make him look great:


I think Lonzo is the favorite for ROY due to hype and the huge points/assists totals he'll put up. However, I feel pretty confident that Mitchell is the favorite to be the best actual player this upcoming season. Prop bet offer open to anyone: I take Mitchell, you take any other rookie, highest RPM(or other agreed upon advanced stat) this season wins. Can have an injury stipulation if you wish.

Perhaps you are failing to see how valuable 15m will be at the end of this when there are dozens of top 100 players who go undrafted because teams do not have capspace

Perhaps you are also failing to see how aging curves work, where the best player of all time even ages, and the ~10th best player of all time is likely to come into the best season of his professional career

Yeah, I realized where this was coming from midway through haha. The main issue is the 5 years. Doing it @ 29 is different then doing it @ 34 when you haven't been asked to do much on offense the past 4 seasons, & you've played less than 27 minutes per game for the past 3 seasons.

people have been saying lebron is aging for 2 years now. he just got career highs in 3's, rebounds, assists while playing most average mins of his career.

not unreasonable to think he isnt going to regress this season.

I'm not sure how this guy is still around .

He is injury prone and I think his new team is an awful fit BUT

He's cheap and very flexible

At 3.3 million .

I take tyreke Evans . He can play the 1 2 or 3

9th most mpg (although he did lead the league), 2nd most assists, 2nd most 3 pointers. Weird collection of volume stats to base an argument on, too.

I think building around Kawhi is a lot safer since a 25yo is a lot less of a health risk and the extra 15m prob means you get competence at every position. There's a ton of value in being very competitive in almost all scenarios that your team could encounter, especially when there's pretty thin margins between the top teams.

Your argument style seems incredibly disingenuous here.

1. You have no evidence for this.

2. Even if it were true, then that probably means he won't care again next year too, right? So you're drafting a guy who won't care until the last 2 rounds vs a guy who will give full effort the entire time...thats not a point in favor of the former.

3. If you just compare Lebron's stats in the last 2 rounds vs Kawhi's playoff stats, Kawhi looks better.

4. Lebron actually had his worst game of the playoffs by far against the Celtics, and he had 2 other mediocre(for his standards) games in the last 2 rounds. Lebron's line in game 3 vs the Celtics: 45 minutes, 11 points on 4/13 FGA and 3/6 FTA, 6 assists(2 turnovers), 6 rebounds(1 offensive).



Basically any way you look at it Kawhi was better than Lebron last year, hes significantly younger, and hes significantly cheaper.

In this format I think kawhi is the clear #1

Money is worth stuff

I think in an alternate reality where Kawhi doesn't get injured, the Spurs could have put up a better fight than the Cavs did vs the Warriors, and it's easier to wrap your head around the idea that Kawhi could be better.

Personally not willing to go there. The fact that he set his career high g1 this year with 35 points and still is only a 3-6 assist kind of guy seems like too large a gulf for his defensive superiority to overcome.

Also he doesn't get to bring the GOAT coach with him.

thats a pretty big thing as well is coach pop. having a wing who is pretty ball dominant on offense, average 3 assists seems pretty bad when you take him out of a system. who knows how he performs without pop, but we know how lebron goes about his business. i mean theres no evidence of a lot of things in the sport of basketball, but lebron has been cruising in the reg season for some time now and I dont think this is even debatable.

ill take lebron crusing reg season, goating playoffs/finals thanks.

Dude, you just posted those stats for the first time! Post them, let me read your post and reflect on it, and then maybe see how I react to them before you claim that I"m blind and arguing just for the sake of arguing?

I've posted multiple times that I am willing to admit I'm wrong. I mean, f*ck, my very first sentence in my writeup was:

I'm totally willing to see the other side, but I do demand some statistical evidence and your anti-Iggy post just now is LITERALLY THE ONLY ONE SO FAR that mentions a single stat. Thank you for finally providing that, now please let me respond before critiquing my open-mindedness.

Ok, so this is the meat of the statistical argument against Iggy, and I think it is valid. Obviously Iggy's insane efficiency(62.4% TS) is a direct result of his insane lack of volume(11.2% USG). As such, its probably better to look at a larger sample size and see if we can gain any insight from it. I think Iggy's role and age were so different in Denver that we should ignore that season, so lets just look at since he came to GS:


2013-14: 13.3 USG, 57.0% TS, 35.4% 3pt on 3.1 attempts, 55.8% 2pt on 5.0 attempts, 4.6 assists(1.8 TOs)
2014-15: 13.3 USG, 55.3% TS, 34.9% 3pt on 3.7 attempts, 55.3% 2pt on 4.9 attempts, 4.0 assists(1.5 TOs)
2015-16: 12.1 USG, 56.5% TS, 35.1% 3pt on 3.2 attempts, 57.0% 2pt on 4.4 attempts, 4.6 assists(1.6 TOs)
2016-17: 11.2 USG, 62.4% TS, 36.2% 3pt on 3.2 attempts, 65.1% 2pt on 4.3 attempts, 4.7 assists(1.0 TOs)
(note: all bulk stats are per36min)

So the first thing that sticks out to me is that his lowered turnovers are a big reason for his usage drop. While he is certainly more wide open on his FGA(due to playing alongside the GOAT supporting cast), his drop in number of attempts has been practically non-existent. Basically I think hes been a very similar player offensively the past 4 seasons. You could definitely make an argument that he'll decline with age, but he seems to be aging well according to the data. So yea maybe his efficiency was a fluke last year, but I think its reasonable to expect him to perform at his 2015-16 level.


This is just semantics. I"m arguing that hes a fine shooter/offensive player FOR HIS ROLE, and that this combined with good defense and good teamwork make him a reasonable pick for me in that spot.

Here are the USG numbers for last year's Warriors:

30.1 % Steph
27.8% Durant
26.1% Klay
16.2% Draymond

And here are the USG numbers last year for the guys on my team:

31.1% Kawhi
23.5% Hill
22.0% Johnson
14.1% Baynes(note: career low, was 18.5% the year before)
????? Mitchell

Maybe I bring Iggy off the bench and then go to my version of a death LU(JJ at the 5, no Baynes). That means I'd need 23.6% USG out of Mitchell in order to have Iggy play the exact same role as last year. Do I think Mitchell will be able to handle that as a rookie? No, of course its unlikely. But the point is that its conceivable, and considering the Warriors were the GOAT offense(whereas my team is a defensive-first team that is just hoping to be passable on O) I'm fine with it.

This seems untrue...this was quite clearly a critique with lots of stats. Although I guess it's not a straight out bashing with stats...I did raise some questions using them, though.

& this one to a lesser extent...

JMurder, his post was one before yours(your second one, which was the main stat-based one), and thats the only reason I said that.

Sorry didn't mean to ignore your post, its just that there were a lot of overlapping points and it took me a while to respond to aejones'. I'll try to hit on a few points that I didn't address.....

Kawhi and Jimmy Butler have proven that it clearly takes a toll on a player's offense for them to be the #1 lock-down defender on their team. Having some time off from that role is quite helpful. Moreover, it was important for my team to be able to switch a lot. This allows you to do a ton schematically. Basically I don't ever think defense is superfluous, as offenses can always scheme to target a weak link.


"Actively declining" makes it sound like a huge negative, but I think that if you have Steph/Klay/Durant/Draymond on the floor with you then having super high efficiency on low usage is exactly what you want to be doing. Maybe this is just semantics, but I don't think it should be framed as a negative.


While I agree that it was an outlier situation, I think the onus is on you to demonstrate this. And as I've pointed out, Klay ranking worse than Iggy is a major mark against the "RPM is broken when evaluating last year's Warriors because anyone would look great on that team" argument.


Yea, I'm not sure I've really changed my mind a ton. I still do agree that it was a bad pick value wise. I still agree that Harris/PatBev were better values. I'm not sure I love building around Harris(or any offensive first player/negative defender) when I already have Kawhi. I think PatBev was probably the best pick, but I got scared away due to the depth of PG and the lack of depth at wing. It basically would've been PatBev/Gallo instead of Hill/Iggy. And then with Gallo I would have another offensive first player/negative defender, while I"m a huge huge George Hill fan.

Maybe I should've just gone Pat Bev/Hill, as their good D will make up for the lack of size.

My 1st post had 11 different statistics in it haha.

Wasn't trying to insinuate that you were ignoring my post or that it required a response, was just saying that I was using #s to support my concerns, too.

More is obviously better, but a defensive stopper is more valuable on a team without one than on a team with one. Agree with your points here in general, though.

I wasn't trying to frame it as a bad thing, just the reason his usage was so low & %s were so high. Understand how you could construe my words that way, though.

I'm not really sure why the onus would be on me. It's just my opinion, & not even a hugely strong one, buuuuuut...

Klay isn't really the proper comparison point for Iggy in the RPM discussion (although he was 4th among SGs, so he seems fine?). Klay still takes lower % shots & ends up having to bail possessions out in certain situations & be the guy to take tougher shots.

The better RPM evidence is guys like UNDRAFTED centers who are 6th & 23rd among centers in RPM, & David West who is 11th among PFs.

Not sure what is best exactly. My main issue with Iggy, probably more than anything else, is the lack of minutes he plays. It's hard paying a guy that much money with your 2nd pick to play half the game.

I've just realized who the steal of the draft is.



well played sir, I'm the only one who can stop it but he really doesn't fit my team as well as yours.

i think you're way overthinking this, and typing a lot of words to deflect from the fact that iggy is 34 and cant do **** on offense. hes a bad shooter and not a particularly credible guy to run a secondary PnR.

but here's some numbers and arguments for you.

RPM is a good stat. probably the best single stat out there. its also not a perfect stat. according to RPM, amir johnson was the #21 best player in the NBA last year. that is patently not the case.

what are RPM's imperfections? for anyone interested in how it is calculated this is the best explanation i've seen.

heres the money quote:

guys like amir johnson and andre iguodala, who play solid defense and dont turn the ball over or waste possessions are really nice complements to lineups that feature a lot of creation and shooting. the celtics and warriors are examples of teams that are built in a way to highlight an amir johnson or a jae crowder or an iggy.

so what's the problem?

1. these guys cant play too many minutes effectively because when other offensive starters go out, the offense would fall apart. (so even if you look at ESPNs win numbers, which are based off RPM but also minutes played, you see that Klay is actually above Iggy.)

2. efficient offensive creation is a very valuable and rare skill. swap Iggy and MKG, id argue its barely a blip in the radar screen for GSW. but do you think Iggy keeps his RPM on a team like charlotte that isnt very good at spacing (or offense in general)?

another point is that RPM takes past performance into consideration. im not sure how much it factors in age, but 34 year olds are going to benefit a lot from that, whereas younger guys just coming into their prime are going to benefit less.

you're making a really bad mistake if you don't think you want more offense. kawhi is 30% USG. that's really good. but its not like some kind of out of this world stat. you're also picking at the end of the 2nd round, and you know you're going to be picking at the end of the 3rd and 4th.

if you add up the USG of your starters, it comes out to a bit below 100%. and that's in a situation where we have 20 teams instead of 30, so we're dropping a bunch of turds that can't do anything. your offense should be able to carry MORE of a load than the average NBA offense. your team also has a bunch of low minute guys, so there's even more minutes that are unaccounted for USG wise.

another thing thats less important in a league without GSW is having multiple lock down wing defenders.

like how many teams in this league is kawhi + iggy even useful against?

GS Warrior role player RPM is an interesting point. I just went through and looked at every single one...don't wanna mention all the undrafteds, so won't get too specific. They're kinda all over the place. But I do think there could be something to the notion that the players who really buy into their role and execute it well on the Warriors may be getting overrated by RPM. Of course I'd counter that with the point that I've built a team that will also hopefully be conducive to role players outperforming their skill level(obv nowhere near the extent of the Warriors tho)

edit to add: eh, the Warrior player who most resembles Iggy in terms of skillset was -1.27 RPM last year(although thats for the entire year, couldn't find his splits just with Warriors)

I think the minutes issue is interesting. The 1st 5 guys Assani drafted averaged a total of 134.1 minutes per game last year, & a team has to fill 240 minutes. Meaning basically the next 3 guys would have to be 34 minute per game guys. DMitch did play 32.3 mpg in college last year (& shot 40.8% which doesn't seem encouraging).

Obviously a normal team has 9-12 guys & all, but it still seems awfully low when 3 of the 1st 5 drafted averaged 26.3, 27.4 & 15.5 mpg irl.

This could be more UNDRAFTED/UNDRAFTED stuff where certain guys get lauded by advanced statistics, but they never play more than like 15 mpg irl, & there's probably a reason why.

Some good discussion going on itt

Phone posting so lame writeup

I'll go with Zaza

Proven performer in the finals

Fills the minutes I'll need

Capable of dishing out dirty dong shots as needed