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1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team 1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team

08-08-2012 , 07:14 PM
Didn't know where to post this, I was wondering if there is a thread discussing the greatest nfl squads of all time?
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
LOL. Yes, the ABA was so vastly superior to the NBA that even when 5 teams were cut out after the leagues merged, the NBA was still weaker than the ABA. Your arguments are ******ed. It's amazing that you talk yourself into a circle until you start defending absurdities like this. FWIW, here are the Top 10 players in the last season of the ABA with their numbers for that season, plus their numbers in the NBA the following year:

Julius Erving
ABA PER: 28.7
NBA PER: 20.9

Artis Gilmore
ABA PER: 23.5
NBA PER: 21.6

Dan Issel
ABA PER: 21.8
NBA PER: 21.2

Marvin Barnes
ABA PER: 21.6
NBA PER: 15.0

James Silas
ABA PER: 21.2
NBA PER: 17.1

Billy Knight
ABA PER: 21.1
NBA PER: 20.1

David Thompson
ABA PER: 21.1
NBA PER: 19.8

George Gervin
ABA PER: 20.0
NBA PER: 21.4

Bobby Jones
ABA PER: 18.8
NBA PER: 21.1

Billy Paultz
ABA PER: 18.6
NBA PER: 15.8

Wow, interesting that 8 of the Top 10 players did worse the next year going into the "easier" merged NBA. The average PER drop was 2.2 points.
Iggy,
This shows absolutely nothing and I hope you realize that. The ABA rules and style of play were way different than the NBA post-merger which can dramatically affect statistical output independently of how good the players and competition were. Also, I think you may want to consider that TWO LEAGUES MERGING AND 5 TEAMS CEASING TO EXIST (combined with the rule and style changes) would essentially cause widespread chaos across the league as teams and players adjusted, which would generally cause productivity to drop on average as new strategies developed and players adjusted to their new roles. Remember when I said player statistics should improve/decline gradually from year to year unless something drastic happens? Yeah, this is pretty much the definition of drastic.

And as you can see from Dr. J's stats, his PER drastically improved and held steady from '79-'80 onward. His initial drop is an obvious case of role change within the new league and on his new team. Gilmore's jumped back up to pre-merger levels one year later. We've already covered Issel. Marvin Barnes usage fell through the floor and he retired at 27. James Silas had a freakishly good year the first year pre-merger. The year before that and the first year after the merger were identical. Billy Knight was in his 2nd year before the merger and his usage tanked after the merger. David Thompson had a career high PER the 2nd year after the merger. Billy Paultz's PER dropped the first year after the merger then rebounded to a PER that was 1.2 higher than before the merger after he adjusted.

The fact that you think these cherrypicked single year stats mean anything when the league was COMPLETELY restructuring is laughable. That you think it proves competition was better post-merger, particularly when the teams and players hadn't even properly adjusted yet, is hilarious as well.

This obviously doesn't show anything about players being better at 35 vs. 29, or a player posting elite stats in his twilight years despite the league being way better 7 years later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd
You're right that my last sentence doesn't follow, it was 2.30am when I wrote it and apparently I wasn't thinking straight. The other part is very significant though.

You talked about filling the extra roster spots with players who are on average worse than those in the ABA, which would be fair enough except that you're not taking players at random from the NBA, you're taking only the best of them. Unless you actually believe that the without the bottom 28% of players the NBA would still have been worse than the ABA then the average level of player being added the league was higher than that in the ABA and so the average player in the combined league was better.
The ABA won 64.6% of their interleague games the year before the merger. The year before that, they won 69.6%. The ABA won every single match between the two league champions. That indicates a striking difference in how much better the ABA was.

RC noted that 5 of the top 10 and 10 of the top 20 PER were from ABA players post merger. This is despite the NBA having 80% more teams than the ABA pre-merger. This is another piece of evidence showing the talent in the ABA was way better on average per team.

The bottom of the barrel in the league is essentially flat with regard to talent. Rosters back then consisted of 15+ players. Cutting ~28% of the roster means they are cutting the 11th through 15th+ men. The bench warmers. The guys who didn't even play. These guys do not have much, if any, impact on the statistical productivity of starters. They are probably not even getting in the games.

The superior ABA talent was diluted 130% percent. This is huge. This is a uniform dilution across teams and will have way more impact than cutting the 11th through 15th men on the inferior NBA rosters.

Then you have to account for the league and teams being in chaos as they adjusted to the new league conditions. This should cause offensive productivity to drop dramatically on average.

Iggy was arguing that this was a clear case of the league improving substantially from one year to the next, and providing an example of a player (Issel) who continued to play well or even improve his productivity into his old age despite the increase in competition. Considering it's far from clear that the average team was even a little bit better, and he didn't even consider the drastic changes in style/rules that occurred, this argument is absolutely terrible and does nothing to further his case. Also, I guess 32-34 is old now .
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BADUU
And IF my Aunt had balls, she would be my Uncle. Typical excuse maker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GimmeDat
Can you post a picture of yourself?
Now that's funny right there.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton Hill
For the greatest team ever assembled the 2012 squad sure does spend a lot of time in 2nd half competitive games.
Only the 2012 USA team could get criticized for winning a game by 33 points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt R
Lots and lots of words.
I don't really feel like spending 30 minutes trying to make a statistically significant proof that the ABA pre-merger was inferior to the NBA post-merger. I could do it, but I'd have to copy/paste/compile statistics forever. When I'm not playing online though, I'm sure I can come up with a similar outlier to Dan Issel from the NBA prior to the merger with the ABA to point out how absurd your Karl Malone thing is which is how we got off on this whole tangent in the first place.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 10:34 PM
What are your thoughts on Stockton and his steady PER up to age 40? That nonathletic twerp should have been terrible in 2002-03 at 40. A guy like him had no business posting a 21 PER only 9 seasons ago.

Last edited by Aytumious; 08-08-2012 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Outlier, LDO
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 10:41 PM
Passing and shooting are the two talents that depreciate the least with age. It's really athleticism-based stuff that goes fast, jumping, running, etc. That's why Nash and Stockton could play well so late into their careers. Malone's more of a freakish outlier. FWIW, I don't really believe talent in the NBA improved from like 1996 to 2002. There was definitely a little relative maximum there where a bunch of really good talents were in their primes like Jordan, D-Rob, Hakeem, Malone. I made this rough graph of NBA talent a while ago in regard to some slightly different argument and never posted it, so here you go:

1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 10:46 PM
Just letting you guys know that literally everyone else in this forum thinks this is just about the worst thread in SE history. If you're a major contributor, congrats!
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Rata
USA's offense is more like "dribble, dribble, dribble, score 125 points per game".
haha nice thats nice
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
Only the 2012 USA team could get criticized for winning a game by 33 points.
But they were only up by 14 at halftime, and only up 3 at one point in the second half. DT never did worse than that!
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
Passing and shooting are the two talents that depreciate the least with age. It's really athleticism-based stuff that goes fast, jumping, running, etc. That's why Nash and Stockton could play well so late into their careers. Malone's more of a freakish outlier. FWIW, I don't really believe talent in the NBA improved from like 1996 to 2002. There was definitely a little relative maximum there where a bunch of really good talents were in their primes like Jordan, D-Rob, Hakeem, Malone. I made this rough graph of NBA talent a while ago in regard to some slightly different argument and never posted it, so here you go:

I must admit. This graph is quite convincing.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-08-2012 , 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
Passing and shooting are the two talents that depreciate the least with age. It's really athleticism-based stuff that goes fast, jumping, running, etc. That's why Nash and Stockton could play well so late into their careers. Malone's more of a freakish outlier. FWIW, I don't really believe talent in the NBA improved from like 1996 to 2002. There was definitely a little relative maximum there where a bunch of really good talents were in their primes like Jordan, D-Rob, Hakeem, Malone. I made this rough graph of NBA talent a while ago in regard to some slightly different argument and never posted it, so here you go:

I think you copied that from this:

1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-09-2012 , 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noze
Just letting you guys know that literally everyone else in this forum thinks this is just about the worst thread in SE history. If you're a major contributor, congrats!
Spoiler:
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-09-2012 , 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton Hill
For the greatest team ever assembled the 2012 squad sure does spend a lot of time in 2nd half competitive games.
+1
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-09-2012 , 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noze
Just letting you guys know that literally everyone else in this forum thinks this is just about the worst thread in SE history. If you're a major contributor, congrats!
I bet this was the guy that used to run to mommy and narc on all the other kids.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 08:03 AM
Argentina vs. USA only 8 hours away.

Vegas has the USA as 24 point favorites.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 08:28 AM
But can the dream team beat the 2013 lakers?
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 12:51 PM
like a drum
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
But can the dream team beat the 2013 lakers?
The 2013 Lakers won't even win the West. Although I am sure Iggy will have some track stats that show otherwise.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 05:25 PM
lol BADUU, lol Dream Team
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 06:40 PM
something something three pointers
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 06:55 PM
Cant win, too reliant, what are you gonna do have Kevin Durant just hit half a dozen 3s every game
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 07:45 PM
kd 5-10, melo 4-8
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-10-2012 , 07:51 PM
Yeah can't all bE good shooting nights. Hopefully they will finally start making something against Spain.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-11-2012 , 04:05 PM
KD 29/52 (56%) behind the arc.

US of A shooting 44.5% as a team.

Keep firing away IMO.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
08-11-2012 , 07:48 PM
Go positive variance

They'd win the games anyway, but the running hot over true long-run 3pt% is helping them to distance themselves from opponents
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote

      
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