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1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team 1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team

07-27-2012 , 11:30 PM
I think the best way to analyze this issue is to look at the middle generation. If the argument many are making about how current athletes are better physically, strategically (understanding the importance of threes for example), and better fundamentally, the players drafted in the 1990's who were still dominant well into the 2000's should have been noticeably superior to the aged DT players in the 90's. There are several HOF and All-Star level players who entered the league in the 1990's who can help to illustrate the point.

Shaq is by far the best example. He entered the league in 1992. He is also one of the most physically gifted freaks in the history of the sport. As athletic as LeBron is now, I'd place a young Shaq over him in terms of physical gifts considering his enormous size. Even if you put LeBron above Shaq, young Shaq is clearly #2 if he's on the 2012 team even if you add guys like Rose and Howard.

Beyond that, Shaq had one of the most dominant peaks ever in the NBA. His stats during the Lakers' title runs were absurd. Still, he didn't lead the league in PER until his 6th season in the league which came after 3 years in college (at age 25). He didn't win an MVP until his 8th season at age 27.

Shaq was gifted physically in a way we may not see matched for decades. Beyond that, he was also quite advanced with his post play. He had moves and counter moves, was a very good passer when doubled, and overall he had a good feel for the game (legally establishing position being a huge aspect of his game, something many large bigs don't understand).

So why didn't Shaq dominate the inferior 90's considering he entered the league after three years of college in 1992?

Beyond Shaq, you have Dikembe, Zo, Webber, Cassell, Kidd, Hill, KG, Sheed, Kobe, Ray Ray, AI, Nash, Peja, Camby, Duncan, Billups, McGrady, Dirk, Pierce, VC, etc. who all entered between 1991 (Big Dik in 91) and 1998 (the year a 35 year old Malone won the MVP). Why did those players not dominate the league in the mid to late 90's when a bunch of elder DT players were still the cream of the crop?

It is one thing to simply state that the players today are superior physically and better at the sport in general, but it is another thing to justify it by looking at how players who cross generations fared against the competition.

Last edited by Aytumious; 07-27-2012 at 11:38 PM.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-27-2012 , 11:37 PM
What is this rambling have to do with anything? Your point isn't that clear or make really any sense.

Prime Shaq is also the 2nd best player if he was on the 1992 team. By 21, Shaq had a 28 PER.

MVP, lol who cares. He has 1 and deserves so many more.

Did all your players dominate on day 1? Look at the players on DT1, in their early years not all were utterly dominant. It takes many players years to reach the pinnicle. The best players today are not mainly guys right out of the college or HS, they are vets.

Your comparison technique doesn't make any sense.
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07-27-2012 , 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
Beyond that, Shaq had one of the most dominant peaks ever in the NBA. His stats during the Lakers' title runs were absurd. Still, he didn't lead the league in PER until his 6th season in the league which came after 3 years in college (at age 25). He didn't win an MVP until his 8th season at age 27.

Shaq was gifted physically in a way we may not see matched for decades. Beyond that, he was also quite advanced with his post play. He had moves and counter moves, was a very good passer when doubled, and overall he had a good feel for the game (legally establishing position being a huge aspect of his game, something many large bigs don't understand).

So why didn't Shaq dominate the inferior 90's considering he entered the league after three years of college in 1992?
Shaq did dominate in the 90s. Him not leading the league in PER until he was 25 isn't as good of a point as you want it to be, because it's not exactly unique for a guy to peak that "late" in his career. Jordan's peak was age 24-27. DRob peaked from age 28-30. Bird was 28-31. Magic was 27-30. Hakeem's best 3 year stretch was age 30-32. Kobe best was 27-28. Duncan's best was age 25-28. It's not like all these guys were in their prime before age 25.

From 1994-1999 (age 21-26), Shaq averaged 28/12 and had a PER of 28.3. He was an absolute monster.
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07-28-2012 , 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmill
Shaq did dominate in the 90s. Him not leading the league in PER until he was 25 isn't as good of a point as you want it to be, because it's not exactly unique for a guy to peak that "late" in his career. Jordan's peak was age 24-27. DRob peaked from age 28-30. Bird was 28-31. Magic was 27-30. Hakeem's best 3 year stretch was age 30-32. Kobe best was 27-28. Duncan's best was age 25-28. It's not like all these guys were in their prime before age 25.

From 1994-1999 (age 21-26), Shaq averaged 28/12 and had a PER of 28.3. He was an absolute monster.
I think his point is that basketball peak does not directly correlate to peak physical ability, btw, not saying his doing a good job of it, but I think that was the intention
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07-28-2012 , 01:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Hero
I think his point is that basketball peak does not directly correlate to peak physical ability, btw, not saying his doing a good job of it, but I think that was the intention
Yea, you're prob right, I just think his post reads a little disingenuous when he says this

Quote:
Beyond that, Shaq had one of the most dominant peaks ever in the NBA. His stats during the Lakers' title runs were absurd. Still, he didn't lead the league in PER until his 6th season in the league which came after 3 years in college (at age 25). He didn't win an MVP until his 8th season at age 27.
Quote:
So why didn't Shaq dominate the inferior 90's considering he entered the league after three years of college in 1992?
It comes across to me as someone who has a pro DT bias and is more interested in pointing out that Shaq dominated against the newer generation of players, but not the older ones. When in reality he was dominant against both and peaked at an age where a lot of great players do so.
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07-28-2012 , 02:06 AM
cant believe you guys would read it that way. Obv not what he was getting at.
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07-28-2012 , 02:19 AM
My point was simple. It was an extension of my question about how Karl Malone was able to win the MVP at age 35 in 1998-99 and why many of the DT players were still good to exceptional well into their late 30's and into the 2000's.

If there is some sort of tangible difference between the players now and the players on the DT, a player like Shaq is the perfect player to look at. He entered the league in 1992 after three years of college. If the players during that period were appreciably worse than they are now, one would think Shaq would have dominated the competition back then due to his superior physical build (one for the ages) and his impressive skill level in the post for a man that big. Why did he not crush the old DT centers in D-Rob and Ewing, or the other centers from that era, considering they were into their 30's when Shaq was in his first several years in the league?

In simplified terms, how the **** did Malone win the MVP at age 35 and why did Shaq not crush an inferior league in his early and mid 20's. Beyond Shaq, you can ask the same question of players like those I mentioned above (Dikembe, Zo, Webber, Cassell, Kidd, Hill, KG, Sheed, Kobe, Ray Ray, AI, Nash, Peja, Camby, Duncan, Billups, McGrady, Dirk, Pierce, VC).

If people really want to claim that the players on the DT are inferior to modern players, they need to explain why the great players listed above, who were excellent in the "modern" era, didn't completely dominate the inferior 90's.

Shaq entered the league in 1992. Webber entered the league in 1993. They are two fabulously gifted athletes who were also very skilled. Still, neither took the league by storm. Both were out shined by past their prime DT era players in their 30's when Shaq and Webber were well into their mid 20's. If the arguments made ITT were true about the tangible difference in abilities between modern players and DT era players, that should show itself in the performance of players like Shaq and Webber who played against DT era players and dominated in the 2000's against "modern" superior players.

Last edited by Aytumious; 07-28-2012 at 02:31 AM.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-28-2012 , 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
I think the best way to analyze this issue is to look at the middle generation. If the argument many are making about how current athletes are better physically, strategically (understanding the importance of threes for example), and better fundamentally, the players drafted in the 1990's who were still dominant well into the 2000's should have been noticeably superior to the aged DT players in the 90's. There are several HOF and All-Star level players who entered the league in the 1990's who can help to illustrate the point.

Shaq is by far the best example. He entered the league in 1992. He is also one of the most physically gifted freaks in the history of the sport. As athletic as LeBron is now, I'd place a young Shaq over him in terms of physical gifts considering his enormous size. Even if you put LeBron above Shaq, young Shaq is clearly #2 if he's on the 2012 team even if you add guys like Rose and Howard.

Beyond that, Shaq had one of the most dominant peaks ever in the NBA. His stats during the Lakers' title runs were absurd. Still, he didn't lead the league in PER until his 6th season in the league which came after 3 years in college (at age 25). He didn't win an MVP until his 8th season at age 27.

Shaq was gifted physically in a way we may not see matched for decades. Beyond that, he was also quite advanced with his post play. He had moves and counter moves, was a very good passer when doubled, and overall he had a good feel for the game (legally establishing position being a huge aspect of his game, something many large bigs don't understand).

So why didn't Shaq dominate the inferior 90's considering he entered the league after three years of college in 1992?

Beyond Shaq, you have Dikembe, Zo, Webber, Cassell, Kidd, Hill, KG, Sheed, Kobe, Ray Ray, AI, Nash, Peja, Camby, Duncan, Billups, McGrady, Dirk, Pierce, VC, etc. who all entered between 1991 (Big Dik in 91) and 1998 (the year a 35 year old Malone won the MVP). Why did those players not dominate the league in the mid to late 90's when a bunch of elder DT players were still the cream of the crop?

It is one thing to simply state that the players today are superior physically and better at the sport in general, but it is another thing to justify it by looking at how players who cross generations fared against the competition.
Dude, wtf are you talking about. Shaq was a raw rook in 1992-93, he was the second best player in the league in his second year.

Double lol at boldeds.
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07-28-2012 , 02:28 AM
Stop talking about MVP

It doesn't matter

EDIT: Reading last "question" now convinced ur a bad troll
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-28-2012 , 02:32 AM
Athleticism and skill both increase over time however it is much more possible for there to be a greater skilled/"better" basketball player 20 years ago than it is for their to be a more athletic basketball player 20 years ago. A lot of this arguing is pretty silly as it's pretty obvious to see why it could be easier for a basketball team 20 years ago could be better than one this year compared to 100m sprinting etc.

With all that said, assuming proper coaching I'd have to think 2012 would be significant favorites, simply due to 2012's much better 3pt shooting play. Durant's 7 feet tall and a better shooter than anyone who even existed in 1992, and Lebron is a better basketball player than anyone who had ever existed in 1992 as well.


Also, the current state of basketball is at an absurd peak, there was a bit of a lull between the Jordan and Lebron eras but the quality of basketball being played right now is at an amazing unapproached level


ETA: Adding Shaq and Rodman to 1992 would make a well prepared 1992 pretty hard to beat though

Last edited by THAY3R; 07-28-2012 at 02:39 AM.
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07-28-2012 , 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Horton
Dude, wtf are you talking about. Shaq was a raw rook in 1992-93, he was the second best player in the league in his second year.

Double lol at boldeds.
WTF?

You also completely missed the point. That seems to be a recurring theme with you.
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07-28-2012 , 02:44 AM
You're confused cuz he was only 3rd team all-nba, right?
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-28-2012 , 02:48 AM
Your point is that it took Shaq awhile to dominate cuz the game was good in the early-mid 90s. It didn't. You're wrong.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-28-2012 , 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
In simplified terms, how the **** did Malone win the MVP at age 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by =Aytumious
If people really want to claim that the players on the DT are inferior to modern players, they need to explain why the great players listed above, who were excellent in the "modern" era, didn't completely dominate the inferior 90's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmill
Athletes obviously get bigger/faster/stronger over time, and get better at their sport as more information becomes available wrt resources/training/strategy. (and as the amount of $ athletes stand to make from playing said sport increases)

I do think it gets overstated sometimes though. The time gap between the 1992 team and the 2012 isn't that big, and you actually have some overlap between the different generations. It's not like we're comparing the 1952 NBA all star team to the 2012 team, where it was a completely different game. At the end of his career, Jordan actually played with KG/Kobe/AI/Duncan. At 40 years old, he dropped 43 points against a Jason Kidd led Nets team, only 8 months before some guy named Labron James played his first game.

I think there's a good chance the 2012 team could beat the 1992 team. But I think it's closer than people think, in part because the 2012 team is missing a few of its best players, and in part because I think the 1992 team would be better than people are giving them credit for.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
why did Shaq not crush an inferior league in his early and mid 20's.
Shaq did crush in his early and mid 20s. Shaq did dominate in his early and mid 20s. Shaq's peak occured at the same age when a lot of players have their peaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
Why did he not crush the old DT centers in D-Rob and Ewing, or the other centers from that era, considering they were into their 30's when Shaq was in his first several years in the league?
In the 94-95 season (so Shaq was 22) Shaq and Ewing played each other 4 times. Their numbers in those games:

Shaq- 40 ppg, 13 rpg, 60% shooting
Ewing- 27ppg, 8 rpg, 47% shooting

I don't think anything needs to be said here.

They played 3 more times in the 95-96 season when Shaq was 23

Shaq- 26 ppg, 10rpg, 53% shooting
Ewing- 22 ppg, 11 rpg, 38% shooting

Eased up on the offensive end, but any time you hold Ewing to 38% from the field I'd say that's pretty good.

The only time Shaq really struggled against Ewing was his rookie year, when he was 20.
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07-28-2012 , 03:17 AM
Interesting stats on H2H with Ewing.

Regardless, you see no issue with how Shaq didn't dominate the league in the supposedly inferior 90's compared to what he did later in his career? That is ultimately the point. Shaq was dominant, but he wasn't as dominant as one would expect if the arguments in this thread about modern players being clearly superior were true.

Beyond that, Shaq is only one example. There are several other players who entered the league in the 90's who also serve as examples of players who played against old DT players and also played exceptional basketball against the current crop of players.

Frankly, I don't see a huge difference in the physical capabilities of players in the early 90's compared to now. I would not say the same thing of players even only a few years earlier in 1987-88. Weight training really started to take off during that time. By the mid-90's, players were quite ripped.
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07-28-2012 , 03:18 AM
LOL @ thinking Shaq's career trajectory supports your point in any way. In 1994, Shaq put up the best PER of all-time by a 21-year old, and the second best PER for a 2nd-year player of any age behind Kareem's second season when Kareem was 23 years old. When, the 90s ended Shaq was 26, and he had the 3rd-best PER of all-time through age 26 trailing only MJ and Wilt:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=per

However, at age 35 playing against modern players (an age Karl Malone won an MVP at as you point out!), he only managed a PER of 17.1 and even though he played most of his minutes with Steve Nash, the Suns were only 0.4 points better with him on the court than with him off it. Now, obviously, it's a pretty trivial exercise looking at when one particular player peaks to try and ascertain league strength, so this doesn't actually prove anything. It just says that if your argument did show anything, it would show the opposite of what you're intending.
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07-28-2012 , 03:25 AM
Yet, despite Shaq's dominance as an individual player in the early 90's, he was actually much better later in his career. How much different is the league now compared to the Lakers three peat? Tangibly?

You derided Shaq's age 35 season and poked fun at my argument about Malone by talking about Shaq's age 35 season and his 17.1 PER. Why didn't you mention Shaq's age 36 season when he posted a 22.3 PER with the Suns? What does any of that have to do with Malone winning the MVP at 35?

Regardless, Shaq is only one example. There are plenty of other phenomenal players who entered the league during a supposedly inferior time period in the 90's who did not dominate against the inferior 30 something DT generation.

Last edited by Aytumious; 07-28-2012 at 03:32 AM.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-28-2012 , 03:28 AM
He was pretty close to peak all the way from '94 through '03.
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07-28-2012 , 03:40 AM
The point is that Shaq was one of the best of all-time for his age early on for his first 6 seasons or so when the Dream Teamers were still around. He was NOT an all-time great for his age late in his career playing against the LeBron/Melo/Wade/Bosh generation. Therefore, your argument's stupid. If the point you're trying to make is that the league was just as tough from '91 to '97 as it was from 2000 to 2003, then go for it, I don't think anyone's arguing with you. There was a lull in the growth of basketball talent at that point. The generation we're seeing now though, is absolutely the greatest generation of basketball in history. LeBron, Wade, Dwight, CP3, Durant, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe, and KG are all Top 20 all-time talents.
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07-28-2012 , 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
He was pretty close to peak all the way from '94 through '03.
I definitely disagree with you there. Shaq changed in 1999-00. In the 1998-99 WC semifinals, I watched a young Duncan toss Shaq around like I'd never seen before. It was incredible. The Spurs swept the Lakers and went on to win a title. Shaq averaged 23.8 pts, 13.0 reb, 1.0 stl, 1.8 blk, but had 9 TOs to only 2 ast and had only a .506 TS%.

He was embarrassed in that series, but after that he went into overdrive in the playoffs for the next three years.
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07-28-2012 , 03:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
The point is that Shaq was one of the best of all-time for his age early on for his first 6 seasons or so when the Dream Teamers were still around. He was NOT an all-time great for his age late in his career playing against the LeBron/Melo/Wade/Bosh generation. Therefore, your argument's stupid. If the point you're trying to make is that the league was just as tough from '91 to '97 as it was from 2000 to 2003, then go for it, I don't think anyone's arguing with you. There was a lull in the growth of basketball talent at that point. The generation we're seeing now though, is absolutely the greatest generation of basketball in history. LeBron, Wade, Dwight, CP3, Durant, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe, and KG are all Top 20 all-time talents.
How are Duncan, Kobe, and KG part of that generation? Is Shaq then from the DT generation?

I'd take MJ, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, D-Rob, Shaq, Malone, and Barkley over the group you listed.
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07-28-2012 , 03:59 AM
The argument was originally about the Dream Team vs. the 2012 team. Kobe's starting on the 2012 team. He obviously counts as this generation. Duncan and KG both had their 2 best statistical seasons in 2004 and 2005. That's pretty close to being this generation, but if you wanna throw them out I don't care. Whatever.
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07-28-2012 , 04:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
I definitely disagree with you there. Shaq changed in 1999-00. In the 1998-99 WC semifinals, I watched a young Duncan toss Shaq around like I'd never seen before. It was incredible. The Spurs swept the Lakers and went on to win a title. Shaq averaged 23.8 pts, 13.0 reb, 1.0 stl, 1.8 blk, but had 9 TOs to only 2 ast and had only a .506 TS%.

He was embarrassed in that series, but after that he went into overdrive in the playoffs for the next three years.
TS% is a little misleading with Shaq, if you're trying to attribute it to a specific player on the other team. His TS% was .506, but he shot 49% from the field. His FT shooting was worse than usal, but it's terrible against everyone, and it's not like Duncan played great free throw defense on him, or fouled him every time he got the ball and sent him to the line. 9 turnovers aren't bad either fwiw, Duncan outplayed him in that series, but had 18 turnovers himself. 9 turnovers in 4 games is fine.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-28-2012 , 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
I definitely disagree with you there. Shaq changed in 1999-00. In the 1998-99 WC semifinals, I watched a young Duncan toss Shaq around like I'd never seen before. It was incredible. The Spurs swept the Lakers and went on to win a title. Shaq averaged 23.8 pts, 13.0 reb, 1.0 stl, 1.8 blk, but had 9 TOs to only 2 ast and had only a .506 TS%.

He was embarrassed in that series, but after that he went into overdrive in the playoffs for the next three years.
LOL @ Shaq "changing" in the 1999/2000 season. The only things that changed were that Phil Jackson had a year to work with the Lakers, and Kobe grew into a legitimate second banana. Compare the playoff stats for Shaq from 94-99 to the stats for the next 5 years during the championship dynasty:

1994-1999:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=per

2000-2004:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=per

Doesn't get much more identical than that.
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07-28-2012 , 07:13 AM
Quote:
The generation we're seeing now though, is absolutely the greatest generation of basketball in history. LeBron, Wade, Dwight, CP3, Durant, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe, and KG are all Top 20 all-time talents.
LMFAO, such a Ridculous statement.

And this is the dude that "knows" about sports.
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