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1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team 1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team

07-16-2012 , 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
So you're agreeing with me now? That slashers who can't shoot from outside are totally shut down by a zone, therefore he'd have a hard time against the 2012 team under FIBA rules.
there goes that funny logic again champ.

by totally shut down by a zone, i suppose you mean college player of the year?

this shows a lack of understanding of the game because this particular example actually shows precisely why the dream team would beat 2012.

mj was college player of the year and couldn't shoot that well; but he excelled at all the things the 2012 team lacks - fundamentals such as post footwork, knowing how to smartly move without the ball and come off screens effectively, great decision-making on DEFENDING against screens (the 2012 team is basically a bunch of dumb#sses with regards to this and that is one of the main reasons why they lose or almost lose to these less talented international teams), setting a ton of screens thus getting himself open (many of the 2012 team, particularly the guards, don't ever or rarely set screens, an enormous leak in their game), rebounding positioning and blocking out as a habit before crashing the glass, and a zillion other things i could name, but you probably already stopped reading...
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07-16-2012 , 10:57 PM
I have no idea what point you're trying to make Matt, but PER just shows how you do relative to other players in your era. It shows that by all the stats measurable in a box score, peak Chris Paul dominated his era more than peak Magic Johnson dominated his. I don't really follow your logic on why players would be closer to the mean in a fast-paced era.
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07-16-2012 , 10:59 PM
lol

Last edited by Noze; 07-16-2012 at 10:59 PM. Reason: @da wreck
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07-16-2012 , 11:00 PM
Quit arguing against yourself trainwreck. You're the one who was just saying that MJ was much less dominant in college than in the pros due to the zone. Obviously I didn't mean that he wasn't still good in college, I was just following the logic chain that you put forth. FWIW, I haven't exactly been penalizing MJ real hard for his shooting in this hypothetical. I still have him effectively tied with LeBron as the most valuable player between the two teams.
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07-16-2012 , 11:01 PM
the problem with saying one guy dominated his era more or less than another guy, is that it is completely irrelevant.

just like it is irrelevant that jimmer freddete crushed college because he sucks in the pros. or carlos boozer crushes the regular season but sucks in the playoffs.

or lebron dominating until he ran into that dallas quasi-zone that he didn't have college player of the year fundamentals to adjust to.
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07-16-2012 , 11:05 PM
Yeah, but when you add in that Chris Paul played in an era with a 60% larger player pool just due to population and international penetration not even accounting for the fact that basketball is much more popular relative to other sports than it was when Magic was growing up, I think it's clear who had the better peak.
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07-16-2012 , 11:05 PM
in chris paul's case, maybe his style of ball only works great in the regular season all the way up to the 2nd round of the playoffs when he finally faces a team with elite defense that has the sophistication to adjust to his predictable, opposite of teammate empowering, pound-the-ball-until-the-shot-clock-is-worn-down style.
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07-16-2012 , 11:09 PM
the biggest critisicm of the clippers all year was that their offense was predictable.

funny, all of chris paul's teams seem to have that same criticism and his seasons tend to end the same way. with HIM (including his stats) and his team fizzling out.

that's why stats showing one guy dominating a certain level don't really matter, especially if they haven't shown that their style can make it all the way.
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07-16-2012 , 11:12 PM
when has CP3 played with another true superstar? West / Blake are both good players but not exactly ideal post players. When he won in NOH, that was pretty impressive considering the roster. In LAC, it's still not a great situation.
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07-16-2012 , 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
in chris paul's case, maybe his style of ball only works great in the regular season all the way up to the 2nd round of the playoffs when he finally faces a team with elite defense that has the sophistication to adjust to his predictable, opposite of teammate empowering, pound-the-ball-until-the-shot-clock-is-worn-down style.
That's pretty cheap if you're trying to use this year against him when he was obviously hurt in the playoffs. FWIW, he played very well in the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2008 against San Antonio:

Game 1: 17 points, 13 assists, 4 steals, 2 TO, 7/16 FG, 3/6 FT
Game 2: 30 points, 12 assists, 1 steal, 1 TO, 11/20 FG, 7/8 FT
Game 3: 35 points, 9 assists, 1 steal, 1 TO, 15/25 FG, 5/5 FT
Game 4: 23 points, 5 assists, 3 steals, 4 TO, 10/16 FG, 3/4 FT
Game 5: 22 points, 14 assists, 1 steal, 1 TO, 6/18 FG, 9/11 FT
Game 6: 21 points, 8 assists, 3 steals, 5 TO, 9/18 FG, 3/3 FT
Game 7: 18 points, 14 assists, 5 steals, 4 TO, 8/18 FG, 2/5 FT
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07-16-2012 , 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
Yeah, but when you add in that Chris Paul played in an era with a 60% larger player pool just due to population and international penetration not even accounting for the fact that basketball is much more popular relative to other sports than it was when Magic was growing up, I think it's clear who had the better peak.
and when magic came into the league, there were less other sports for kids to get into and less other distractions like social media and stuff, so players took the game sooooo much more seriously.

they were just happy to have the opportunity to make their 200k a year playing ball. that was amazing to them. and since players were paid so much less, the league was more competitive with guys hating each other, and all star games being played tooth and nail, etc, etc.

nowadays, its a friendly game with a bunch of basically basketball nerds in the nba that were coddled and steered on the right track starting in the 5th grade. no more thuggery like the old days (which is better and i love the direction the league has gone; but it has taken away from the competition a little bit).
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07-16-2012 , 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
I have no idea what point you're trying to make Matt, but PER just shows how you do relative to other players in your era. It shows that by all the stats measurable in a box score, peak Chris Paul dominated his era more than peak Magic Johnson dominated his. I don't really follow your logic on why players would be closer to the mean in a fast-paced era.
This of it this way -- what would happen to LeBron's numbers if the shot clock was reduced to 15 seconds? What would happen to the league average numbers? What would happen to LeBron's numbers relative to the league average numbers?
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07-16-2012 , 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
BTW, the CP3 vs. Magic thing becomes more clear if you use per-possession stats instead of bulk stats since the 80s Lakers played at such a faster pace than the Hornets from a few years ago:

Magic: 26.3 USG%, .602 TS%, 9.7 TRB%, 47.2 AST%, 2.0 STL%, 15.9 TOV%
CP3: 27.5 USG%, .599 TS%, 8.7 TRB%, 54.5 AST%, 3.9 STL%, 13.5 TOV%

So basically, Chris Paul, scored more, got more assists, and got more steals while turning the ball over less. It wasn't a fluke year either as his 07/08 season was almost identical.
How does that account for how the defense would need to guard Magic with a SG or SF, how they'd need to double him in the post, and how he was superior on the break both after his own rebound or after receiving the outlet from another player?
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07-16-2012 , 11:22 PM
obviously, the last 3 games of that series, he wasn't able to dominate like he did the first 4, and, i watched those games cheering for paul to win the series and thought san antonio was in trouble.

but then they adjusted just like i said, for the last 3 games of that series, it was excrutiating to watch paul's efficiency drop and you knew the series had changed. you could just feel it and see it.

paul wasn't able to get to his favorite spots, and he had no counter strategy but to just keep pounding the ball, putting up decent numbers still, but his team never had a chance once SA adjusted to his style.
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07-16-2012 , 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
and when magic came into the league, there were less other sports for kids to get into and less other distractions like social media and stuff, so players took the game sooooo much more seriously.

they were just happy to have the opportunity to make their 200k a year playing ball. that was amazing to them. and since players were paid so much less, the league was more competitive with guys hating each other, and all star games being played tooth and nail, etc, etc.

nowadays, its a friendly game with a bunch of basically basketball nerds in the nba that were coddled and steered on the right track starting in the 5th grade. no more thuggery like the old days (which is better and i love the direction the league has gone; but it has taken away from the competition a little bit).
what i'm saying by this quote is that players today are softer mentally with regards to the game, because for the most part and for most players, it just doesn't mean as much; it's not life or death like it was in magic's day. it can't really; it's not their fault. they just make too much money.
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07-16-2012 , 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
How does that account for how the defense would need to guard Magic with a SG or SF, how they'd need to double him in the post, and how he was superior on the break both after his own rebound or after receiving the outlet from another player?
Those are overall numbers. If Magic's "better on the break" than Chris Paul, then that just must mean Chris Paul must be better than Magic in the halfcourt by an even larger amount to have better overall numbers. If you wanna say the size difference screws up other teams lineups more than would be accounted for in the numbers, I guess that's somewhat fair, but I definitely don't think that it's a huge factor, and in FIBA ball with the ability to play a true zone against a team that shoots poorly from the outside, it's an even smaller factor.
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07-16-2012 , 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
obviously, the last 3 games of that series, he wasn't able to dominate like he did the first 4, and, i watched those games cheering for paul to win the series and thought san antonio was in trouble.

but then they adjusted just like i said, for the last 3 games of that series, it was excrutiating to watch paul's efficiency drop and you knew the series had changed. you could just feel it and see it.

paul wasn't able to get to his favorite spots, and he had no counter strategy but to just keep pounding the ball, putting up decent numbers still, but his team never had a chance once SA adjusted to his style.
Game 5, he had 22 and 14 in a 22 point Hornet victory. His efficiency dropped a little bit in the last two games, but he still didn't have a bad game in either one. I would say that he had a very low-variance series in that his good games and his bad games were much closer than you'd usually expect from a superstar.
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07-16-2012 , 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
Yeah, but when you add in that Chris Paul played in an era with a 60% larger player pool just due to population and international penetration not even accounting for the fact that basketball is much more popular relative to other sports than it was when Magic was growing up, I think it's clear who had the better peak.
The league has 30+% more roster spots in Chris Paul's peak year due to expansion of the league so the talent is diluted. The 60% number is incorrect. Furthermore when you expand population size the bottom of the NBA talent level will be getting filled in faster than the average NBA talent and the elite the slowest of all. Therefore when you are filling in those 30% roster spots you're actually filling them with the worst available players -- this is the region of the player pool that is growing the fastest due to international penetration and population growth. It's not close to keeping up with the 30+% increase in roster spots.

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07-16-2012 , 11:36 PM
stockton was a good 3-pt shooter and so was mullin.

and i would take mj, scottie or drexler in a shooting contest from 22 ft against any dream teamer.

and once again, you are saying that the 2012 advantage from 3pt range would mean more in a zone setting than the dream team's advantage inside. this is just not true.

i'll take my team scoring inside and shutting down the paint against your team shooting a much higher proportion of jumpers and having a more open paint.
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07-16-2012 , 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
BTW, there's no way in hell the 2012 team would waste LeBron guarding old man Magic Johnson. LeBron would be on Michael at all times. If they were really that worried about the size differential at the point, they could just start Westbrook over CP3 and still have a solid edge at that position while only giving up a few inches, but I really don't think it would be that much of an issue since they'd be playing a lot of zone which would keep Magic from being able to post up efficiently since no one in the starting lineup for the Dream Team could shoot the 3. Honestly, I think probably starting CP3 with a zone, and then having Westbrook come in off the bench if they bring in Mullin to stretch the floor would make more sense.
Jordan shot 40% from the shortened NBA line. Pippen could shoot from deep. Hell, Magic could shoot the deep NBA 2 without a problem.

Beyond that, superior passing breaks a zone just as well as outside shooting, and the DT would shred a zone with their passing. You have elite passers with sky high basketball IQ's at every position. Every starter is at the top or near the top in terms of passing at their position in the history of the sport. Combine that with great off the ball play and rock solid jumpers out to 18 feet (even if we think they couldn't shoot the three), and a zone would look awful.

The DT would still post against a zone because it would force double teams and the superior passing would then take over leading to a midrange J or a layup. Even if you think the old timers couldn't shoot the three as well, they could bury open 15-18 footers at all positions much better than modern players.
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07-16-2012 , 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
stockton was a good 3-pt shooter and so was mullin.

and i would take mj, scottie or drexler in a shooting contest from 22 ft against any dream teamer.

and once again, you are saying that the 2012 advantage from 3pt range would mean more in a zone setting than the dream team's advantage inside. this is just not true.

i'll take my team scoring inside and shutting down the paint against your team shooting a much higher proportion of jumpers and having a more open paint.
God, this is such a tease. I wish there was a real way to bet on a shooting contest between Kevin Durant and Scottie Pippen. Give it 100 shots, and I'd bet a year in prison against $10K.
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07-16-2012 , 11:43 PM
another competitive game for team usa against barbosa, splitter and varajao, true world beaters.

at least they got a little better this time. winning by 11. in 2006 they won by 4.
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07-16-2012 , 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
Those are overall numbers. If Magic's "better on the break" than Chris Paul, then that just must mean Chris Paul must be better than Magic in the halfcourt by an even larger amount to have better overall numbers. If you wanna say the size difference screws up other teams lineups more than would be accounted for in the numbers, I guess that's somewhat fair, but I definitely don't think that it's a huge factor, and in FIBA ball with the ability to play a true zone against a team that shoots poorly from the outside, it's an even smaller factor.
That isn't how the sport works if we are just looking at raw individual numbers. Individual stats can't account for how many buckets Magic created for his SG or SF because one of them was being guarded by an opposing PG. The individual stats can't account for the various ways in which an open shot could be created if a possession started with Magic in the post against a smaller player. The individual stats can't tell the full story of Magic's impact on the break off his own rebound or after an outlet.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
God, this is such a tease. I wish there was a real way to bet on a shooting contest between Kevin Durant and Scottie Pippen. Give it 100 shots, and I'd bet a year in prison against $10K.
Yeah. That's ridiculous.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
God, this is such a tease. I wish there was a real way to bet on a shooting contest between Kevin Durant and Scottie Pippen. Give it 100 shots, and I'd bet a year in prison against $10K.
okay, you'd win that particular bet. way to choose your team's very best shooter. i'll take mullin against him though. but not for a year in prison. just too close.

but i'd take your bet if we could show that the dream team scoring inside and shutting down the paint results in a better team than the 2012 team shooting a much higher proportion of jumpers and having a more open paint.
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