Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team 1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team

07-16-2012 , 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmahler
I'd always heard that the Magic playing center game was pretty much a gimmick. He did the center jump, then had a couple of possessions playing where Kareem normally played, but then went back to playing PG. That game was before my time, so I've never seen it.
out of my entire post and this is what you try to refute.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
"well, let's see, his PER was higher, so he is better, uh huh huh, uh huh huh.." gimme a break.

if it was all about stats, then why didn't david robinson destroy hakeem? instead, it was the other way around. why can't carlos boozer play in the playoffs anywhere near the level he plays in the regular season? why don't we just take the guy with the highest PER in college and have him be the number 1 pick every year? why is it that lebron with the highest PER since MJ was capable of shrinking to 18ppg in the Finals?

these questions are not even close to being explained by stats. the game of every player changes as the competition keeps getting ratcheted up and as different scenarios arise. some can withstand the increase in comp or changes in scenario, some can't.

chris paul has a higher PER so he's better. whatever. the fact that he's a shrimp compared to magic and magic could play 5 positions LEGITIMATELY (it's not some sort of stretch at any position) means nothing.

the fact that magic's game would excel even more now in the age of point forwards and stretch 4's means nothing.

heck, with that PER, i guess chris paul is as good as lebron to then. gtfo with the tunnel vision on the stats. they only tell a fraction of the story. the game isn't played on paper.
anything more worthwhile that you want to refute in the post?
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmahler
I'd always heard that the Magic playing center game was pretty much a gimmick. He did the center jump, then had a couple of possessions playing where Kareem normally played, but then went back to playing PG. That game was before my time, so I've never seen it.
Hollinger analysis:

Quote:
Magic had other plans. Starting at center, he played all but one minute and exploded for 42 points, 15 rebounds and seven assists, including an impressive 14-of-14 from the line. While Magic wasn't technically playing center for much of the night -- Jim Chones and Mark Landsberger handled that -- he played every spot on the floor during the course of the evening and even launched a Kareem-style skyhook from the post to start the game. More importantly, his work on the boards was a huge factor in the Lakers' ability to overcome Kareem's absence.
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012...formances-no-2

Highlights of the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDW...yer_detailpage
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt R.
Chris Paul 2008-09:
30.0 PER, 22.8 ppg, 11.0 AST, 5.5 RB, .503 FG%, .364 3PT%, .868 FT%, 2.8 STL, 0.1 BLK, 3.0 turnovers

Magic Johnson 1986-87:
27.0 PER, 23.9 ppg, 12.2 AST,, 6.3 RB, .522 FG%, .205 3PT%, .848 FT%, 1.7 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.8 turnovers

Does anyone know how to breakdown the individuals terms in PER to figure out why Chris Paul's PER in '08-09 was so much higher than Magic's in '86-87. I see there are a lot of team and league terms in the equation, but I'm not about to begin to figure out what they all mean and I'm definitely not buying the book.
I'd guess that the difference is mainly in the adjustment for league. Magic played in a higher scoring league than Chris Paul does.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmahler
Looking at a Youtube of highlights of that game, seems like the offense was still running through Magic. On defense, he guarded Henry Bibby (PG) or Bobby Jones (SF).

you know what's funny watching that video, is that there is no way chris paul could stay with magic. it would be a joke. magic was athletic and he doesn't get credit for it.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:41 PM
It is funny to watch this and imagine any of the 2012 PGs trying to guard him. This is Magic in the playoffs roughly a year before the Olympics.

The rebound at :50 right under the board followed by 3 dribbles and a pass for a layup illustrates how amazing he was on the break. His play in that regard can easily be forgotten when comparing him to Paul while only looking at stats. As great as Paul is, he can't match Magic on the break either when he gets the board or when he gets an outlet and goes. The match up problems he created also made it easier to have a proficient offense.



Even at 31 dude was quick as hell for a guy that big. His handle was incredible.

Last edited by Aytumious; 07-16-2012 at 09:47 PM.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:41 PM
there is a reason they actually go out there and play the game rather than deciding it beforehand on paper.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:42 PM
People are deifying the DT roster. I think they'd win the game, but I'm not confident in that opinion. The DT players aren't untouchable. Paul's third best PER season is tied with Magic's best. Paul's PER over seven seasons is 25.4. Magic's PER over 13 seasons was 24.1. I'd take a thirteen-year career of 24.1 over a seven-year career or 25.4 but let's not pretend Paul can't possibly be better than Magic.

OTOH the hyperbole from some on the other side is grating. There's been no sea change in player skill and athleticism in the last twenty years. Actually, a more appropriate window to look at is the last ten years. Half the dream team was still posting all-star level player efficiency ratings into the late 90s and early 2000s, in the twilight of their careers.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCheckRaise
If DT goes small it is still crushing 2012. Barkley in his prime holds LBJ to under 20 a game, every game. Scotty is a horrible match up for Durant. Magic>>>CP3, MJ=Kobe (only on D) and DR or Ewing are raping Chandler.
This has all sorts of fail.

I think Iggy pointed out but when was Barkley known as a good defender much less a wing defender. Barkley was an AMAZING offensive player. Other than his rebounding, his D was quite weak. Lebron would rape Barkley's face.

I'm not sure where I am with the Magic, CP3--but in 1992 when Magic was out of the NBA for a year vs CP3 in his slight post prime--there is no way, Magic >>> CP3 and with the Zone, Magic's height is neutralized more than it would be if 12 was playing M2M.

MJ = Kobe, seriously wtf. Kobe is old (34). MJ is in his prime at the time. This is just...dumb. Peak vs Peak, Kobe gets raped as well.

Personally, due to injuries as I mentioned repeatedly this isn't much of a contest. If you take 2012, healthy vs 1992 in its actual form--2012 has a great chance especially if you play with 2012 FIBA rules.

Lebron against DT would definitely play PG especially if Magic is playing significant minutes.

And for all the people saying Magic would dominate--the dude played 8 minutes per game in the Olympics. From the minutes distribution it looks like MJ was playing a ton at the 1--and honestly it didn't matter all that much due to the competition. MJ and Pippen had more assists than Stockton and Magic combine albiet in many more minutes in 1992.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...teams/USA/1992
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
Cmon fellas, I thought this discussion was over?

So now the excuse is that the international game is so much tougher? lbj, cp3, hgh, bosh, wade and melo (for brevity, from now on referred to as “the dribblers”) didn’t just lose to the Greek team – they played several other highly competitive games against teams with ridiculously lower levels of talent.

The whole “well, the international game is tougher now” doesn’t work if you are beating teams led by marco bellinelli and barbosa by only single digits.

For starters, here is the list of players on the Greece team that the dribblers lost to – not one nba player that I recognize !!!! http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/na..._mwc_box8.html

Greek team:

9 Antonios Fotsis
10 N. Chatzivrettas
13 D. Diamantidis
14 L. Papadopoulos
15 Michail Kakiouzis
4 T. Papaloukas
5 S. Schortsanitis
7 Vasileios Spanoulis
8 P. Vassilopoulos
11 D. Ntikoudis
12 K. Tsartsaris

Here is the Brazil roster that the dribblers barely beat 90-86 (http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/na...on_box3.html):

12 Guilherme Giovannoni
15 Tiago Splitter
11 Anderson Varejao
4 Marcelinho Machado
8 Leaonardo Barbosa (what an awesome perennial nba all-star like the dribblers… oh wait..)
10 Alex Garcia
5 Welington dos Santos
6 Murilo Becker
7 Jose Estevan
9 Marcelinho Huertas

Then they played a highly competitive game with Puerto Rico (as shown by the quarter by quarter scores), and only won by 11! It’s frieking PR guys! http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/na..._mwc_box1.html

Puerto Rico roster:

11 Antonio Latimer
14 Carmelo Antrone Lee
15 Daniel Santiago
10 Elias Ayuso (oh wait, this guy’s a boss.. I take it all back )
7 Carlos Arroyo (PR best player, but couldn’t make the Heat team in 2010)
12 Filiberto Rivera
13 Manuel Narvaez
4 Peter John Ramos
5 Angelo Reyes
6 Roberto Hatton
8 Rick Apodaca
9 Chrisitan Dalmau

Then the dribblers were down at halftime to the Italy team below and only won by 9 – notice the team and minutes leader of the Italian team in bold (http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/na...wc_box4.html):

Italy team:

4 Marco Belinelli (I was actually high on him at one point. I think he dominated summer league one year)
7 Matteo Soragna
9 Marco Mordente
12 Richard Mason Rocca
15 Angelo Gigli
5 Gianluca Basile
6 Stefano Mancinelli
8 Denis Marconato
10 Andrea Pecile
11 Andrea Michelori
13 Fabio DiBella
14 Luca Garri

Cmon youngsters... you’re just in denial about it.

Clearly there is something wrong with the modern style of play for them to be playing competitive games with these teams led by marco bellinilli and Vasileios Spanoulis (I know !! Who the f is that !!).

Cliffs: as you can see, the whole "well, the international game is so much tougher now" holds no water. if the dribblers were having trouble with teams led by bellinelli, barbosa and spanoulis, and losing to a no-name greece team, they can't beat the dream team. period.
They might not be great. But they are still significantly better than the lineups of the international teams in 1992. Losing to PR and Greece was embarrasing but losing to teams like Argentina / Spain who are really, really good especially in the international game are not. If team USA lost to PR and Greece with NBA rules it would be more shocking than losing like they did eventhough it was still embarrasing.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:59 PM
People are making way too big of a deal about zone defense and the DT. Beside the fact that many of the players had range out to the FIBA line, the superior passing from those guys would pick a zone apart. A lineup of Magic/MJ/Pip/Barkley/and D-Rob is loaded with exceptional passers at every position, and those guys played in an era where passing was emphasized over dribble penetration to a huge degree compared to now. DT bench players were obviously also exceptional passers for the most part.

They also seriously underrate how big of a problem it would be to guard Magic, and overrate how big of a deal it would be that Magic didn't play for a year. He was a monster in 1991, and he'd only need to be in basketball shape to be a monster in 1992.

Last edited by Aytumious; 07-16-2012 at 10:06 PM.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
This has all sorts of fail.

I'm not sure where I am with the Magic, CP3--but in 1992 when Magic was out of the NBA for a year vs CP3 in his slight post prime--there is no way, Magic >>> CP3 and with the Zone, Magic's height is neutralized more than it would be if 12 was playing M2M.
did you watch the WCF video that antonymous just posted? he was runner up for mvp to mj that year and that was just 1 year prior to the olympics. he still had a lot left at the time of the olympics when he was only 32.

he only played 8 minutes per game because of the HIV scare and ignorance dynamic, so he was mistakenly considered kind of a gimmick at that time.

also, your view about the zone is entirely opposite. magic's height allowed him to see over zones just like he did over double teams. while paul can get trapped effectively, magic can't. he'll find the open man on the other side of the court (especially when on the post, just like lebron) while paul has to scramble and just pass it to the nearest dude.

i know why you are saying the zone would negate his size because you think there would be more help for magic on the post - more opportunity for him to find the open man and see over and dissect the zone, and many times he would still just be mono-a-mono on the post.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:03 PM
whoops 48 points, 6 games but 33 assists...not sure of the mpg.

as long as Magic isn't one on one with Cp3 in the paint--I really don't think it's that big of an edge. If Lebron was on magic, Magic would be in a big trouble.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
They also seriously underrate how big of a problem it would be to guard Magic, and overrate how big of a deal it would be that Magic didn't play for a year. He was a monster in 1991, and he'd only need to be in basketball shape to be a monster in 1992.
seriously - i don't think capone and others really watched the wcf video you posted. it was a great video that showed magic's handle and quickness at 31 years of age, 1 year prior to the olympics. you can see why magic was runner up for mvp that year.

part of the reason the vid was so great was because that was a pretty good team they were facing with tim hardaway at the point and a prime mitch richmond at the two.

magic guarded hardaway a lot, but you can see in the video, magic would guard the two, the three or the four, and byron scott was on hardaway a lot as well. with a 6'9" pg that can move, there are just so many options for how you want to match up, whereas the options are more limited for the other team with their 6-foot pg.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
And for all the people saying Magic would dominate--the dude played 8 minutes per game in the Olympics. From the minutes distribution it looks like MJ was playing a ton at the 1--and honestly it didn't matter all that much due to the competition. MJ and Pippen had more assists than Stockton and Magic combine albiet in many more minutes in 1992.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...teams/USA/1992
Every game was a blowout. What happened in those games has no relevance on how things would play out in a competitive game. It would be like having a current NBA team play a bunch of HS teams then try to read something into the stats.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainwreckog
seriously - i don't think capone and others really watched the wcf video you posted. it was a great video that showed magic's handle and quickness at 31 years of age, 1 year prior to the olympics. you can see why magic was runner up for mvp that year.

part of the reason the vid was so great was because that was a pretty good team they were facing with tim hardaway at the point and a prime mitch richmond at the two.

magic guarded hardaway a lot, but you can see in the video, magic would guard the two, the three or the four, and byron scott was on hardaway a lot as well. with a 6'9" pg that can move, there are just so many options for how you want to match up, whereas the options are more limited for the other team with their 6-foot pg.
Stop ****ing talking about posted videos, you are obsessed with videos and sample size of 1. Great you constantly post these stupid videos and I could give 2 ****s about them. I know Magic was good. I have no idea how really good he was after being on lay off for a year--much like MJ struggled to pick up the game in his first season back from retirement--but maybe Magic was better off.

Last edited by capone0; 07-16-2012 at 10:12 PM.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aytumious
Every game was a blowout. What happened in those games has no relevance on how things would play out in a competitive game. It would be like having a current NBA team play a bunch of HS teams then try to read something into the stats.
So what can I read into? Only things you want me to read into?

All I know is Magic hadn't played an pro game/Olympic game from Jun 12, 1991 until Jul 26, 1992. Obviously he probably played some pick up / pre-Olympics games.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:12 PM
It is funny how the people who are all "Magic was unstoppable, he'd outplay the **** out of CP3 after a year trying to fight a deadly disease with no training whatsoever" are the same ones who say that Michael Jordan's 1995 season didn't count when he lost to Orlando because after playing a different professional sport, he'd "only had 21 NBA games to get back into basketball shape and was nowhere near the same player".
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
It is funny how the people who are all "Magic was unstoppable, he'd outplay the **** out of CP3 after a year trying to fight a deadly disease with no training whatsoever" are the same ones who say that Michael Jordan's 1995 season didn't count when he lost to Orlando because after playing a different professional sport, he'd "only had 21 NBA games to get back into basketball shape and was nowhere near the same player".
It was obviously the number change.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:14 PM
the matchup issues would be far more severe for the 2012 team. not only would they have to find an answer for magic - they would have to use up lebron on him - and then who would guard mj?

and of course, there are the inside matchup problems with malone, barkley, ewing and robinson, which the 2012 team has no answer for - this is being really downplayed and underrated itt. all the focus is on the short, quick pg's for the 2012 team; but what matchup problems would you rather have? getting crushed inside and on the glass, or by a penetrating pg, where both teams are going to be giving up penetration? and which team has the bigs to be able to help on that penetration?

and with mj, scottie and drexler, they match up well athletically on the perimeter with lebron, durant and a quick pg. and then magic would be the X factor that the 2012 team wouldn't be able to contend with along with the inside guys.

also, no one talks about how the zone would benefit the team that has shot-blocking 7-footers that can camp in the lane for as long as they want. lebron would think it was the 2011 mavs on steroids.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymcfly
It is funny how the people who are all "Magic was unstoppable, he'd outplay the **** out of CP3 after a year trying to fight a deadly disease with no training whatsoever" are the same ones who say that Michael Jordan's 1995 season didn't count when he lost to Orlando because after playing a different professional sport, he'd "only had 21 NBA games to get back into basketball shape and was nowhere near the same player".
dude, every time i read your posts, i ask myself whether this guy actually won a horse event or if your avatar is a level. because you have some of the dumbest, illogical posts i've seen in this forum.

magic having HIV had no impact on his basketball game. he didn't sit out because he was "fighting the disease", he sat out because people were too ignorant at the time about the disease and so it was widely and incorrectly thought that he SHOULD sit out, even though it was later realized by all that he didn't need to. he basically gave up the rest of his career after his runner-up mvp finish in 1991 as a 31 year old, for nothing.. due to people's ignorance.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmahler
I'd guess that the difference is mainly in the adjustment for league. Magic played in a higher scoring league than Chris Paul does.
One thing I'm questioning about PER is it seems it adjusts for pace and league scoring and then also standardizes it to 15. If you adjust for pace and higher scoring this will bring Magic's adjusted (non-standardized) PER down relative to Chris Paul. Then since the entire league is going to have a higher adjusted PER because of the faster pace, once you standardize it by dividing it by the league average adjusted PER you're going to reduce it again relative to his raw production. I'm not sure this is a fair way to measure production across eras with different pacing.

As for those Magic videos, holy crap. Prime Magic was before my time and I honestly didn't realize how good he was. I definitely underrated his athleticism. I think overall he was definitely a better player than Paul since he could do so much more than a 6' point guard. As a pure point guard it's probably pretty close though.

I'd take '12 Paul over '92 Magic due to the AIDS thing though. Although I'm sure Iggy is exaggerated the "taking the year off to fight a deadly" disease thing a tiny bit to make a point -- I don't think he was on his death bed at any point.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt R.
Chris Paul 2008-09:
30.0 PER, 22.8 ppg, 11.0 AST, 5.5 RB, .503 FG%, .364 3PT%, .868 FT%, 2.8 STL, 0.1 BLK, 3.0 turnovers

Magic Johnson 1986-87:
27.0 PER, 23.9 ppg, 12.2 AST,, 6.3 RB, .522 FG%, .205 3PT%, .848 FT%, 1.7 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.8 turnovers

Does anyone know how to breakdown the individuals terms in PER to figure out why Chris Paul's PER in '08-09 was so much higher than Magic's in '86-87. I see there are a lot of team and league terms in the equation, but I'm not about to begin to figure out what they all mean and I'm definitely not buying the book.

Looking at the base stats it looks a little crazy to me to claim that Chris Paul was ~11.1% more "productive" overall than Magic in both their peak seasons. Given how many of you guys use PER to rate players I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this.

(Not sure if I agree peak Chris Paul is better than peak Magic, but I do think it's close.)
BTW, the CP3 vs. Magic thing becomes more clear if you use per-possession stats instead of bulk stats since the 80s Lakers played at such a faster pace than the Hornets from a few years ago:

Magic: 26.3 USG%, .602 TS%, 9.7 TRB%, 47.2 AST%, 2.0 STL%, 15.9 TOV%
CP3: 27.5 USG%, .599 TS%, 8.7 TRB%, 54.5 AST%, 3.9 STL%, 13.5 TOV%

So basically, Chris Paul, scored more, got more assists, and got more steals while turning the ball over less. It wasn't a fluke year either as his 07/08 season was almost identical.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:24 PM
he still didn't play pro ball for a year. Mj took a while and was in better shape but took a while to re-adjust. or is magic just that much better off?

you act like people asked magic to retire--he chose to retire himself--watch the ESPN movie.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote
07-16-2012 , 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0
whoops 48 points, 6 games but 33 assists...not sure of the mpg.

as long as Magic isn't one on one with Cp3 in the paint--I really don't think it's that big of an edge. If Lebron was on magic, Magic would be in a big trouble.
you are right - they would have to put lebron on him. but then who guards mj let alone ewing, robinson, malone and barkley inside?

with the dream team, they matchup better with 2012 than vice versa. mj, scottie and drexler matchup better with lebron, durant and a quick pg than 2012 can matchup with magic and mj (that's the value of having the best player on your team, in this case mj).

and magic played a big part in that in the mismatches for 2012. as you can see from the 1991 wcf video, magic posted up all the time as a STANDARD. so paul would absolutely be caught on the post against him.
1992 USA Dream Team vs. 2012 USA Men's Bball Team Quote

      
m