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Old 02-11-2008, 09:56 PM   #1
S@mR£dw@y
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PT will kill the online game in the long run

Poker players versus poker tracker
What can we do?? Poker tracker is killing the game stone dead!

You don't believe me?

Well let me tell you straight, this game gets tougher every time I turn on my computer and I put a lot of that blame at the feet of programs like PT. The reason why is not because it gives players an edge, after all, the software is available to us all right?

No the reason poker tracker is killing the game is because it lets losing players know that they are losing!!

Simple obvious and true. In the old days most of the fish would not keep accurate accounts of their wins and losses, so that rare winning day would be magnified in their minds to a point where they would cancel out maybe 2 or three equally large losing sessions. They would be losing plenty, but somehow fooling themselves that they were actually big winners, after all - they won £400 last Friday right?

With poker tracker there is nowhere to hide from their losses, this forces them to do either one of two things:-

1. Quit playing the game.
2. Become better poker players.

Now what's wrong with that you may be thinking - well if you are don't be so stupid, what's wrong is that without losing players there can be no winning players. This is a simple but incredibly important fact in poker as it is in life - so let me repeat.

WITHOUT LOSING PLAYERS THERE CAN NOT BE WINNING PLAYERS

The idea that we can all be winning players is patently absurd it is like saying that if we all had degrees then everyone in the world would be a doctor and no one would have to clean toilets ever again!

So that established, then what do we do? Can we lobby the sites, can we start a campaign. I mean in the long run these tracking programs are against the interest of the sites because they will clearly lead to the action drying up, and lets face it no one is going to put in forty hours a week just to pay there rake right?

What's our best foot forward here?

P.S> I posted is thread on Cardplayer and got absolutely slated for the very idea that PT may in the long run be bad for the game , but I gotta say one more time - if all the losing players know that they are losing then why would they continue to play??
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:04 PM   #2
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

ehh, no. It takes only two players to make one a winner and one a loser. factor in rake and the % of net winners decreases, but not to the point where everyone is a loser.

basically, if all the big fish leave - the previous marginal winners become food for the big winners - and so it continues.

also, most losing players either do not track their play - or can see they lost, but figure it is because they got unlucky.

Quote:
it is like saying that if we all had degrees then everyone in the world would be a doctor and no one would have to clean toilets ever again!
Have you tried explaining this to new labour
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:08 PM   #3
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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No the reason poker tracker is killing the game is because it lets losing players know that they are losing!!
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:17 PM   #4
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

This is absurd. The number of PT users (or any other tracking software users) compared to the total number of poker players on the net is so tiny it's hardly worth mentioning.

The games are harder, yes, but blaming it on PT users is ridiculous. Why not blame the millions of poker books in circulation? Could it be that it's now a well known fact that poker is a game of skill? A game of skill that you can make a ton of money at tends to attract a lot of smart people willing to take the time to learn to win.

If you are losing, don't blame PT. Blame yourself.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:43 PM   #5
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

Wow - why assume I am losing cause I would rather play without the aid of software against players who aren't using it??

I mean in athletics steroids are banned right?

I actually do have a copy of PT - I'm not ignorant, I am just trying to look ahead to the impact that this kind of software will have on the future of the game we all love.

Yes i agree that there are many factors that are making the game harder, but ultimately, especially as poker software improves, do you not think that this will actually reduce the skill in the game as the factors of perception concentration etc are largely managed by your computer.

Dunno, I'd rather play a guy live in a casino where all mechanical aids are ILLEGAL!!!
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:46 PM   #6
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by PokerAce View Post
Why not blame the millions of poker books in circulation?
Add to this the endlees amount of TV shows with exposed cards that gives social card players a half decent education from expert players with no more effort than watching TV and we are probably getting closer to the truth.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:18 PM   #7
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

If you are finding the games tougher, you should move up in stakes...they'll respect your raises more there. Also, buy PokerTracker...it makes it so you can't lose.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:22 PM   #8
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

Wow - maybe you guys need reading software. i am not losing. I own poker tracker. I like poker. etc etc.

I want the fish to stay in the game - that's all sum total of what I am saying. I think that if a lot of players realise that they are actually losing money then they may stop playing which WILL (future tense) make the game as a whole less profitable. This is logical ---- no???
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:33 PM   #9
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

1. Deposit $100
2. Play Poker
3. Balance = $0

How can anyone not understand that they are losin $?

Last edited by fozzy71; 02-11-2008 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Why isn't this thread locked?
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:38 PM   #10
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by HighSteaks View Post
Add to this the endlees amount of TV shows with exposed cards that gives social card players a half decent education from expert players with no more effort than watching TV and we are probably getting closer to the truth.
There's nothing better than playing a cash game with someone who has learned poker by watching the WPT.
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:33 AM   #11
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by SoCalRugger View Post
There's nothing better than playing a cash game with someone who has learned poker by watching the WPT.


Sure but that's a level up in thinking from just bad play ie you are exploiting what you know someone thinks he knows about poker etc which is where we can always go when the well runs dry at a certain point of evolution in the game (like the current software explosion for example). But we have to work to get there ourselves, to know what they know etc Before the fish saw pros exhibiting the basic mechanics in front of their eyes on TV, (ie bottom pair is a fold) making money was a lot easier....
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:52 AM   #12
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
1. Deposit $100
2. Play Poker
3. Balance = $0

How can anyone not understand that they are losin $?
Well deposit again then win a lump, withdraw some then go bust. Re-deposit, lose, re-deposit lose, re-deposit win, lose some win some withdraw some etc. ad infinitum - gets kinda complex don't it?
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:55 AM   #13
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by S@mR£dw@y View Post
Well deposit again then win a lump, withdraw some then go bust. Re-deposit, lose, re-deposit lose, re-deposit win, lose some win some withdraw some etc. ad infinitum - gets kinda complex don't it?
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:58 AM   #14
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by S@mR£dw@y View Post
Well deposit again then win a lump, withdraw some then go bust. Re-deposit, lose, re-deposit lose, re-deposit win, lose some win some withdraw some etc. ad infinitum - gets kinda complex don't it?
Yes but as PokerAce pointed out the number of players who use tracking software is tiny so your point is moot DUCY?
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:13 AM   #15
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

Yea your probably right towelie, I probably got my knickers in a twist about nothing.

To tell ya the truth I started this thread after having a conversation with a guy I know - a pretty well known and well respected live cash pro. He dabbles on the net and he assured me that all decent players had Tracking software, and what's more assured me that I would be an underdog in any online game without it.

That kinda shocked me really, does it not bother anyone else, would you guys not rather play without it?
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:35 AM   #16
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
1. Deposit $100
2. Play Poker
3. Balance = $0

How can anyone not understand that they are losin $?
o3l
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:37 AM   #17
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

Well, I've long felt it wasn't really poker once you add tracking software to the picture. That takes it from opponent competition to software/analysis competition. Take it all the way, and why not write software to ferret out the players strategy chart (so to speak) and have the software suggest the hand range you are up against... and then compare you hole cards to that... and tell you how big the pot has to be...

So I think we are seeing the beginning of a software war.

To which I say fine, everyone should get the software free when they open an account to keep the playing field level, or ban it altogether.

In the interim, I suspect that if we want to play effectively online, we may have to investigate the value of this stuff. I really didn't want to, but short of playing in bricks and mortar casinos again, guess it's just the current state of affairs.

Since I personally lost most of my affection for casinos after living in Vegas, and eventually dealing blackjack at one point, I'd rather be able to make online work for me. But that's just me. YMMV.
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:42 AM   #18
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by New York Jet View Post
If you are finding the games tougher, you should move up in stakes...they'll respect your raises more there. Also, buy PokerTracker...it makes it so you can't lose.
Now that's classic, LOL!

I know, go for NL because you can scare them out of the pots!

Though I have heard some say, perhaps plausibly that the jump from say the lowest limit to one or two up makes the players more predictable at times because they are thinking about how to play, but may not have figured out how to be tricky yet. I guess that means the "ABC" players, whatever that is.

I will say this. Because I have been wondering about this issue I'm trying Holdem Manager to see what can be seen. Didn't want to, to much like my job. Fussing with software problems, databases, etc. And so far none of these HUDs tell me what I want to know, that I've found yet, anyway. What do my opponents limp and raise with, in what position. HM shows three bets. Any of them might, haven't found it yet.

So anyway, the point is this, just using the VP$IP and Raise figure to determine who is tight/loose and passive/aggressive is comforting, but one of the first thing that became apparent is that just because thier loose, doesn't mean they didn't raise AK on you *this* time. LAGs seem to be the problem here. You can't tell if they raised something solid or not. So got zapped there on at least one occasion.

OTOH, know who's a TAG is more useful. As you know to respect thier raises a bit. Just of the top I found that useful. It also seemed the tighties could be counted on to fold to a raise a little more reliably, say to isolate a loose player.

Anyway, I'm no poker wiz, so I shouldn't discuss strategy too terribly much, but in a short test I didn't find a HUD to be a light sabre or anything. Fact is, you'll have to invest some effort in learning what to do with the data, on top of learning to play good poker. So in some sense you get out of it what you put into it. At least until that "estimated hand range" tracker comes along.

Were I savvy enough with Wintel tools I'd try that myself, but it'd take years for me to just learn the tooling.

Last edited by AAATT; 02-12-2008 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:45 AM   #19
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by AAATT View Post
Well, I've long felt it wasn't really poker once you add tracking software to the picture. That takes it from opponent competition to software/analysis competition. Take it all the way, and why not write software to ferret out the players strategy chart (so to speak) and have the software suggest the hand range you are up against... and then compare you hole cards to that... and tell you how big the pot has to be...
Online poker is not live poker. People need to realize this fact. In live poker, you have the tremendous advantage of actually being able to look at your opponent. Your facial recognition and ability to match that with memory recall on how he/she played in the past is much better than your ability to match a screenname with past play. If anything, the tracking and HUD software bring online poker closer to the experience of live play.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:13 AM   #20
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by MoneyInDAbaNk View Post
OP if your that concerned about PokerTracker programs and such play at cake where they are banned / hardly supported
I detect a certain amount of glee here. Fill me in on the thinking behind it.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:26 AM   #21
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by PokerAce View Post
Online poker is not live poker. People need to realize this fact. In live poker, you have the tremendous advantage of actually being able to look at your opponent. Your facial recognition and ability to match that with memory recall on how he/she played in the past is much better than your ability to match a screenname with past play. If anything, the tracking and HUD software bring online poker closer to the experience of live play.

I don't know if it makes it closer to live, I feel that point is debatable.

My points are just these:

1) To keep the playing field technologically level, everyone should be getting a copy from the casino at account creation time or no one should get it. If a casino approves, they should pay you for each copy. It should be everyone or no one as I believe one of the cool things about poker live poker is that when played honestly, the playing field is about a level as it can be.

Can everyone be a Doyle? Nah, no more than everyone can be a champion chess player.

2) Never could a live player expect the accuracy of the software tools.

I played 7-Card Stud live in Vegas in the 90's. About all we had to go on was Roy West's book, Pearcy's Book, 7CSFAP and Super System. I kept player notes and had some 40 pages between my legal pad and PC. But I certainly had no clue what percentage of the time somebody raised on 5th street,LOL!

3) Having to learn how to use the software, fuss with the bugs, database management, etc. All very non-tradition poker things that take time away from being able to study the literature out there and play the game.

Granted Caro was doing simulations when I was a kid, and I've done them too, but that's different for statistical analysis of players.

Granted I suspect it will make using 2+2's mathematical bent more useful to many.

Having tried one of your competitors tools it is clear to me that it adds overhead to the things you have to learn to be competitive, while at the same time making those things accessible in a more concrete way.

It's much more concise to say "tight" is 20% VP$IP than to say, "They don't play hands like ATo early".

That "hands like" statement in the earlier 2+2 books was always a stumbling point for me... How "like" like Aces with a bad kicker? Offsuit? Not connected? What attributes???

Ironically, Ed Miller's writing are better in this respect and not surprisingly he's ex-Microsoft.

HPFAP has always struck me as very inaccessible, but SSHE was very accessible, to draw a comparison.

Granted decades separate the two.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:34 AM   #22
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAATT View Post
1) To keep the playing field technologically level, everyone should be getting a copy from the casino at account creation time or no one should get it. If a casino approves, they should pay you for each copy. It should be everyone or no one as I believe one of the cool things about poker live poker is that when played honestly, the playing field is about a level as it can be.
[devils advocate]

L
O
L

You think everyone who sits at a live game are *level*?

some may be rich gamblers who've never played seriously, some may have studied psychology and body language for many decades.. how on earth do you think these players are "level"
[/devils advocate]

is a psychology major somehow more entitled to an advantage than a database admin?
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:43 AM   #23
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

I don't understand how some people manage to not drown in the shower.

This entire argument about how tracking software "kills" the game is beyond ludicrous, for reasons already mentioned multiple times in this thread.

Everyone plays poker for a different reason.
Not everyone plays to make money.
Fish know that they lose at poker. They may not know WHY, but they know.
Tilty players know that they tilt. PokerTracker is of no use there.
LAGtard players know that they are LAGtards. They enjoy gambling.

Thread over.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:59 AM   #24
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

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Originally Posted by S@mR£dw@y View Post
PT will kill the online game in the long run
or save it by catching superusers
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Old 02-12-2008, 03:26 AM   #25
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Re: PT will kill the online game in the long run

I never said the *players* were level... the *playing field* is level.

By player A having tracking software and player B not having it, the *table* is tipped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _dave_ View Post
[devils advocate]

L
O
L

You think everyone who sits at a live game are *level*?

some may be rich gamblers who've never played seriously, some may have studied psychology and body language for many decades.. how on earth do you think these players are "level"
[/devils advocate]

is a psychology major somehow more entitled to an advantage than a database admin?
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