hi,

today i compared a setup between pokerazor and pokerstove and got differing results:
when comparing how A9 fares against a 3bettors range of(55+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,KQo) which makes up 11,8% of preflop hands iget 42,4% equity for A9 when using pokerstove but only 36,5% when using pokerazor.
is there an explanation for this discrepancy?

regards
asteroid

Hi,

I just did that calculation using Pokerazor and the answer is 42.4%.
You probably had some actions defined or inserted the settings wrong.
The way to do that is to give Player1 A9 and Player2 the range you specified.
Then leave all the actions as they are (check/fold through all streets) and set pot to 100.
Click start adn you will see the results.

For now preflop computations are very slow. This is why we use montecarlo method and the result may differ SLIGHTLY. Here are some results from the calculation you gave to give you an idea what slightly mean (I just click Start and copy/paste the results)

Player1: 42.354
Player2: 57.646

Player1: 42.353
Player2: 57.647

Player1: 42.349
Player2: 57.651

Player1: 42.394
Player2: 57.606

One of the things we are working right now is making all the computations which starts and ends preflop instant and exact. This will be announced in one of the coming updates.

thx for the answer.this works for me too in the headsup analyzer.
incorrectly used the range explorer,which as i have learned now,is only comparing preflop

great tool,i am waiting eagerly for a dummies help file

asteroid

Oh, you probably mean "My hand is best" stat which is in fact 36.47%. This is not the same as equity though !
Equity is fraction of the pot you get on average after all missing cards are dealt on the board. "my hand is best" stat tell you how often your hand is best RIGHT NOW (in this case on the flop). For example 32 is better hand RIGHT NOW than AQ on J82:clubs: flop. AQ has bigger equity though. Those are two completely diffrent stats
36.47% in that examle means how often A9 will be the best hand on the flop on average.

Yeah I am working on this. First part should be up soon

great!

Fantastic software. This is similar to Poker Academy's analysis tools (which are real-time for online PA games -- but very few folks, I think, use the tools.)

The usefulness of the PA advisor is always debatable -- but the hand tools are quite nice. This rivals PA's tools, IMHO.

Can you make it display the claculation for the hand please, highlighting the numbers (and where they came freom).

Such as .89 * .35 +
Hand equity P1
Bet Size P1

That'd be great as i feel this could become very misleading should we accidently leave a button clicked. Seeing the calculation as a backup will be comforting.

Thanks

New upgrade (to version 0.5.8)

New features :

-result display is changed to chart-like. It's easy to recall older settings now and see all the results in one place; it will be further improved in few days

-added "clear" button in range explorer

-added no. of combos in Villain's actual range in Range Explorer

For more detailed description go here : http://pokerazor.com/blog/
Any comments are welcome. Here, on the blog or on our forum.

Punter.....this is an incredible piece of work....I tip my hat to you sir.
Eagerly awaiting final release......I will be the guy first in line.

Please show the hand and board in the results panel.
Please also provide a clear button for that window.

And see above post, then your program is A+ sir!

Can you please elaborate ? I am not getting this idea. I suspect it's simple as you only talk about display but I don't get what you need. One specific example would be great.
(btw we are working on displaying graphs and making charts for hands with their EV for given strategies, just wait it will be awesome)

Yeah this is missing for now. We will talk about it tomorrow and probably have it done in 2-3 days.

On the to-do already

There are two of us I am getting too much credit
Anywy.. just wait for commercial release and some awesome awesome graphical features there

Been playing with the software it bit. It's scary great. Nice work.

I've mostly been doing postflop stuff until today, which I've found great. The preflop stuff I was doing today has me a little confused though. Using the strategy analysis tool, I did the following:

Set the pot to $6
Player 1 has a range of 33% of starting hands and has $400 behind
Player 2 has a random hand (**) and has $400 behind.

Player 1's strategy is "bet 14 / call"
Player 2's strategy is "if hand is JJ+, AK, AQs then after bet go all in" otherwise "fold"

This strategy gives player 1 an EV of $5.239 and player 2 an EV of $0.761. So, this only seems to be taking account of the money in the pot before the action and not any money that is going in after that. Whatever I do preflop, the EV for both players ends up summing to the original pot.

Here are some screenshots of what I've done:





The result seems really wrong to me. But, I dunno, I'm probably doing something dumb or misunderstanding how to use the tool.

Well, if one player is +X in EV postflop, then the other is -X... what's the sum of +X and -X?

In other words, if one player is gaining EV, it must be at the other's expense. Thus, the sum of both players' EV psotflop will always be zero.

All i want is for the program to display the calculation, the easier to read it is the better.

Rather than just showing me the result of P1 = $10
P2 = -$10

i'd also "Calculation performed: P1 * 4.5 + .55% -X YZ " so i can see it and say yeah that matches my calculation cool its right ill use that data.
Right now all the calculations are hidden 'behind the scenes' of course.

It would be great to just see every calculation it performs. This may take some work though!

The results you are getting are correct. The money you put into Pot field are considered "dead money" - something that's gone into the pot before the interesting actions are analysed. The results assume that player1 and player2 will take some part of the pot, the better each one of them plays in your simulation, the bigger his share.

So, if pot is 0, all EV will come from the bets you define in Pokerazor, and EV(player1) = - EV (player2), because one can only get chips from the other.

If pot is, say, 100, EV (player1) + EV (player2) = 100.

Now, it's possible that both will have positive EV (as in your example), which means they both earn some share of the dead pot, but it's also possible that their play gives one of them negative EV despite pot being 100, which means not only the other player gets all the pot contents on average, but he also gets some part of the stack of his opponent.

Money in the pot is best used to simulate actions of other players (mostly in preflop), like players those that put the money in and folded, as Pokerazor only handles HU for now.

Pot is something that is included in EV in Pokerazor, because we assume you're considering what's the best action in any given moment, with all that had happened in previous rounds treated as history and it is up to the players in that moment to take actions that get as much of that money + as much of opponent's stack as possible, without sacrificing their own stacks.

wow awesome program. That said, lol at all the "end of poker" crap. Bottom line is fish who are just trying to see a flop with their Q3o aren't going to be using tools like this.

God I'm a moran. I took me about 2 mins to realise this after I got up today. Stupid me trying to understand EV in the early hours of the morning.

Thanks for replies, though.

I wanted to write similar software like 6 month ago, but I suck at programming.
I bet you could make an awesome NL bot.

Firstly this software has the potential to be worth a fortune to someone who takes the time to study different situations to improve their game. At the moment though the assumptions you can make about your play or an opponent is too limited for the results to be anywhere close to accurate.

The main problems as I see it are that streets are currently independent of the previous ones and the conditions need to be more exact. Board texture is also important. If I’m deciding whether my opponent or I would bet top pair on the river it makes a big difference whether the kicker is good or weak. If the turn went check/check then it would be reasonable for someone with TPTK to make a river value bet but if the turn went bet/raise/reraise/call then your hand wouldn't look anywhere near as strong. Previous action and board texture are so important that calculations that disregard them are likely to produce highly flawed results.

I realize it would be impossible to cover every possible board texture and previous action but I have an idea that might be easier to implement and would help allot.

Firstly if there was an option in the conditions that ranked your hand against all possible hands and instead of saying you'd bet/call with top pair you could say you'd bet/call with a hand ranked between 50-100 and raise/call with a hand in the top 50 hands. On a flop of Tc 9c 8c and I hold Ad Ts my hand would be TPTK and similarly it would be TPTK on a flop of
Tc 6s 2h. The difference being that in the first case there is around 120/1081possible hands that are ahead of me while in the 2nd there is only 28/1081. If the hands could be ranked by overall current hand strength then we could have the option to add conditions according to this.

For the previous action it might be possible to add something to the conditions that shows how the pot has escalated since the start point. Say there is 10 in the pot pre-flop and I’m adding conditions for flop/turn/river betting. Now if the river is reached and the pot is only 20 (signifying a 1/2pot and a call) I would be very likely to bet TPWK but if the pot was 90 (meaning two pot sized bets and calls) I would now probably check/fold TPWK. If there was an option to account for how the pot has multiplied form the flop to turn, flop to river and turn to river then I could add a condition for TPWK that states if pot multiplied from flop to river by <3 I would bet/call but if it was greater then 3 I’d check/call and maybe greater than 6 I’d check/fold.

Just my thoughts I don't know how hard they'd be to implement but they would make the results you get allot more accurate.

$500>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>$50

you already have a smallish market (where a majority have $500 disposible money) and i really believe you'll get more than enough sales to make 500 the better price.

No as everyone would just wait for the 2 other competiting products to give a low price, the coding of this probably doesn't rival HM, PT3 or PT2.

The problem is Pokerazor doesn't work that way.h It doesn't "think" like humans do. It just deals all the possible cards and make all the actions throughout calcualting the outcomes, summing them up and returning the average. If you are interested in correctness of the calculation we have "log" option which are currently invisible in public beta. Those logs are huge though (for simulations starting preflop they can be several gigabytes long). We talked about a feature which could generate "human like" calculations and it's possible.
It's our priority just now but it will probably come together with new tree-like interface.

This should be added in 1-2 days.

WoolyHat, the explanation you received about EV's is correct. We will work on presenting them more clearly and adding tutorial entry about them though.

Ok I realize there is much to be done. We are working all the time and our main problem is not inventing features as we see a ton of them but setting priorities. We just need to choose what to work on. Don't forget just 2 weeks ago all you had to your disposal was PokerStove a pen and paper

Taking into account history of the betting has to wait for tree-like interface. It will be natural there.

This is above tree-like interface on our to-do and probably will be implemented faster.

Actually we have neat idea which will allow the user to cover all the board textures he or she wish.

While I agree this is important it has to wait. Other things (some of the you mentioned before) earned higher priority on our to-do

Thanks for all the suggestions they are always welcome. Our main enemy is time. We try to choose features which most often spoken of to work on first.
We are putting every feedback we get on long long long wish list. Just realize we can't work on everything

It's hard to compare really. It's diffrent task which needs diffrent skill set.
We will have more to say about the price of the product in a few days till then you have a chance to influence our decision on the matter

Thanks for your replies. When you say the tree like interface will help in adding allot of features are we talking days/week/months before it's implemented. As you say two weeks ago we had a pen/paper and poker stove but now that a better alternative is in sight i'm excited and as usual impatient.

Most of the popular software makers probably make more than 95% of the poker players who play for a living.

Anyways, this program is so sick. Many of the high-stakes players must be really upset about this, lol. Fantastic job!

Do you have an estrimated time about when the soft will recognize the kicker ?