I don't get this thread...

I think this.

Harsh is fine, but I have to pull you up on a few points.

What I've created is a training site, and I'm about to make it significantly better. I have a very clear sense of direction here. Range vs. Range has been implemented, and this new work has been designed. There's nothing vague about it from where I sit.

I'm not particularly trying to make money at all. I'm trying to find out if it's going to be ok to give it away to all for free (or a nominal fee), or I'm going to need to make this training site exclusive. If it's going to be the latter, I need to know so that I can patent it. I don't particularly care either way. Exclusive would be more fun, but much more hassle for me. I'm much more interested in writing software and poker training and playing poker than the paperwork or fees of applying for a patent.

There's perhaps a 10% chance that it's going to be useful enough that it's worth making it exclusive. Or perhaps it's 1%, or 50%, I just don't know. It definitely might be useless. I just don't know.

I thought MSNL people would be able to tell me. I think I've explained in sufficient detail how the software will work (although perhaps I didn't properly explain the existing Range vs. Range software and how it lets you train specific post-flop situations really easily already). But I've got mixed responses. People in this thread have generally not understood, or been sceptical. People via PM have understood much better, and expressed significant concern.

I suppose I realise now that I am going to have to just finish the software, and then everything will become clear. Hopefully I can do that with plenty of time to see how useful it is so I can find out if it needs patent protection within the 12 months I have before my patent application lapses.

If and when this becomes available let me know. I think this sounds like a great idea. Sure it has the potential to make the games tougher, but the players that put in the work with this software will improve and stay ahead of the curve.

Most poker players are lazy and their games become stagnant due to the lack of effort in improving their games. This software will benefit those who want to become better. I don't see anything wrong with that.

+1. I think you've answered my question. I think I overestimated people.

If I don't patent it, I just have to make it cheap, so no one else can undercut me. Which means whoever wants it can afford it. Probably some pricing model like having the current practice situation functionality available free, and the blind range play functionality for members only.

I expect it'll be a month or so. Also it will definitely be entirely free for a while (possibly a long while) because I have no idea how to make a payment system, and no particular interest in it, especially when working on that means less work on making great software.

Good job everyone

Not quite what you asked for, but you would need to do an awesome job with the user interface to make this playable.

Even on the rainbow flop you used, people will want to cbet depending on whether or not the hand has some backdoor fd. On 2-suited boards this is even worse. You will basically need to offer the full ~1k hands instead of the 169 we are used to. Doing a single move will typically take minutes?



Anyway, regarding patenting it to save the games:
The idea is pretty easy to implement on the server/calculation side of it, the user interface is the only real issue. Once you come up with a good approach, it will probably be easy to copy as well.

If you make your product extremely high priced, people will copy it. A patent is not going to stop someone in {insert country that does not care about copyright infringements / patents} from writing a cheap clone.

I agree. Luckily, I love a challenge.
I don't know, I hope not, we'll see, but it's okay if it does. I think that's a reasonable price to pay to be playing every hand in your range simultaneously, against every hand in their range.

Hopefully I can come up with some way of (for example) "moving all hands above A9 that have backdoor flush draws into the call range". Although I know to start with there will be no such optimisations.
You're right of course, there are no secrets in software like this. You might be right about someone setting this up in a non-PCT country. I'll have to look into that.

Still, it's quite a lot of work to go to, and it won't be easy to get it right. Even then, the potentially payoff is small (can't charge much for it, right?), and you'd have to spend money to advertise, and building a competing player base would be hard. So there is hope.

Yeah, i think you should do fine if the price is relatively low. I doubt 20k patent fees are worth it in that case.

Btw, can you give some details on what exactly you applied a patent for?

It can not be range vs range play in general i think?

Every fictitious play implementation basically uses that under the cover.

So just range vs range play between humans?
Or just the GUI providing range vs range play?

lol software patents anyway

I won't bore you with the exact specification, but the novel/inventive part of this product is that:

• the user is asked to split their current range into a fold range, a call range and a raise range (and raise size), and
• the server acts for them based on those choices, so that a hand of poker is played out like normal

If you can find another software product that does those two things, my software patent may be invalidated. And if you do know of similar software, please tell me so I can not bother re-inventing the wheel with this software.

I think you're right though: I'll leave it free in the first instance, and see how it goes.

Nah, i don't think there is existing software doing both.

As i mentioned Fictitious Play implementations will typically run simulated games with range vs range. But there is no user interaction and no server involved.

I don't know enough about patents. Does that mean a P2P version would not be covered by your patent, since there is no server involved?

"Server" is a loose term. The server software might run on one of the client machines. It might even be in the same process. In fact, both clients and the server could run in the same bit of software. (Provided you had a private way to talk to two users, like having two screens.)

Patents are weird, I'd be the first to admit. You just have to be very careful when you write your specification (and if you have a professional write it for you, you still have to be very careful, because they don't understand your "invention" as well as you do), and when you write your claims.

By the way, you should be happy not knowing much about patents. I was happier when I knew less about patents.

Just wanted to say I think the idea is amazing. While I think if players use it, it would vastly improve their game and thinking, I doubt most players will.

No one is playing range vs. range on a server.

The host can save all the hands and with so much information an algorithm could be made to either mimic the players strategy or exploit the players strategy.

The only way this works is if people have 100% control on the information they give.

+1