Paying customers. You also forget something, the person behind at least one tracker totally agrees with us and would have done this without being prompted if there were not other trackers around to negate a lot of the effect.

Yes they would. Its extremely unlikely someone will write a HUD for just those two sites though that also has to interact with three different tracker databases. And no HUD would be huge.


This is again only looking at one side of it. Supporting these sites also has the potential to limit their customer base imo or at least strengthen the competition. I know if one tracker supported them and one didnt the one that didnt support it would definitely get a sale, and then the other Id have to decide if I really needed it in addition to the first.

Sometimes I wonder how closely people followed all that stuff. The way the community was treated in the aftermath was as bad as the cheating itself. It was like being cheated all over again with all the lies and foot dragging and cover ups.

I agree, no HUD would be huge, but let me remind you that there are still players out there that play online and don't use a HUD or Tracker, and these are probably the majority of players that still play on those sites.


There is the potential, but you have to remember poker players are looking for edges. IMO most players are not going to boycott a Tracker/HUD if it has something that will give them an edge, but supports a site that they don't approve of. If all Trackers/HUDs were the same and had the same features then this might make one Tracker/HUD stand out more over another.

Don't tell me what I should do. Don't try to impose your will on others. Are you happy about that when legislators do it? I'm not going to be happy if you succeed in doing it to me. And I don't play poker to "punish these cheaters," to express moral outrage, to demonstrate how holy I am, or to cause UB/AP to go out of business. Stop trying to impose you will on others. Just leave alone.

Why do you think that the majority of players on AB/UB don't use a HUD? Have you seen all the threads/posts about reducing the max number of tables from 10 -> 7. I think you are just taking a guess. I think that the majority of 2p2 types that play on those site take every advantage, perceived or real, they can get, including using HUDs and playing at sites with reputations for stealing from players.

I think you are confused about what we are try to do. Nobody wants to boycott any software at this point in time. We are asking the software developers to not support AP/UB.

So... if we are to follow your logic, why would we listen to you telling us what not to do?

Besides, noone here is ordering anyone to do anything. We're requesting that the next gen trackers do not support AP/UB. We're not ording them to. We're not threatening to not use them if they don't. We're just making a request.

I don't really see why anyone would have big problems with that.

Legislators banning online gambling is stupid because it's something adults can do in the privacy of their own homes without harming anyone but themselves.

You (or anyone), however, playing on AP/UB after the cheating has been exposed, hurts MY ability to play on a safe poker site because YOU are telling companies that it's ok to cheat because people will still play there and make them rich. So yes, I intend to do something about it. **** off.

I don't play at UB or AP.

I just would like my converted hands to work in the next gen. trackers.
Also, I think you are overdoing it. Why do we, as a community, have the right to make it hard on members of that same community to play on those sites? Its not like cheats need PT3/HM/pEV to win more with 92o.

That part
+1

I think goofyballer, in the post right above yours, made a pretty good argument to answer this.

Signed. I hope UB and AB get flushed down the toilet.

I disagree.

Since when do we play on a site to make the owners rich? I play to get richer myself. And I would say its a little far fetched to say that someone playing on UB hurts Goofys ability to play at, say, Stars. (no flame intended)

Signed.

lol, worthless thread without statements of the really important persons

Josh, rvg and phil.

Your motive (to get rich yourself) is irrelevant. Whenever we pay rake, we make the owners richer.

Not at all far fetched. If UB / AP continue to attract rake, despite cheating the players, it pretty much gives the green light to any site that they may as well start cheating too - the previous barrier to doing so "why kill the golden goose" will have been proven false

It is best these go under, as an example to other site owners that may consider skimming some extra profit from their players.

I completely agree. I wish all three developers would post their thoughts, whatever they might be in this thread.

Phil is on board as shown by the quote in the OP of this thread and other posts in the PokerEV thread.

I have traded a few emails on the subject with Roy and Mike. They are aware of the thread but are carefully considering the situation before posting anything.

I posted in the PT3 thread but I'm not sure in Josh even saw my post. I think he will eventually.

And you are stating the obvious. Also, your opinion on whether or not my motive is relevant is irrelevant in itself.

And I agree totally that UB/AP should go down. If this is the best way to do so, that I doubt. All i wanted was support for AP's HH format (just the format, again, I dont play there). I wasn't looking for a discussion about this.

p.s. I highly doubt though that if one of them goes down that this will guarantee that no site/person will ever attempt it again. It's a bit like cycling. You do some EPO and you know you will get caught and still there are teams where it's normal to do it.

I don't really understand what you are saying. What does "just the format" mean? If you just want support for OLD HHs, read the 4th post in this thread.

Nothing is guaranteed. It seems like you are arguing that we should just lay down and accept theft from players because any single action we take is unlikely to immediately solve the problem. I'm going to go ahead and disagree.

I think there is going to be a lot less cheating in cycling in the future because riders are getting kicked out of the tour, getting 2 year bans, losing their team contracts, and facing criminal charges. Now that people are on notice that getting caught is going to have consequences, they won't be as likely to cheat. Some still might, but fewer will and those that do won't be cycling for long. Our actions to hold online poker rooms accountable have the same effect. If we hurt UB/AP's bottom line, though a variety of measures including removing software support, other rooms will figure out that running a crooked room isn't a good idea. The punitive effects on UB/AP are a nice bonus too.

Even if we assume that AP/UB getting away with stealing from their customers won't encourage other sites to try the same, what kind of image and message is it sending to potential new players?

There's a 60 Minutes story coming out about this issue soon.

Which ending to that story do you think is most likely to attract new fish to playing online poker?

1. Online poker sites were caught cheating and stealing from their users. Noone was punished for the cheating and the sites didn't lose their customer base, basically sending the message that poker sites don't have to worry about any consequences for cheating their customers.

or

2. Online poker sites were caught cheating and stealing from their users. While there was no legal consequence for the owners of the site who did this, the players themselves took action, stopped playing at the site forcing them to close, serving as a strong deterrent and warning to other poker sites to not try the same.

Which of the two conclusions are most likely to bring new players into the game? Granted, neither one is particularly appealing, but that train passed long ago.

The profit there is to be made at UB/AP at the moment is insignificant compared to the damage it does to the community as a whole that sites cheating their users don't have to face any consequnces for their cheating and stealing.

This isn't even a profit vs morals/ethics issue. It's purely a profit issue. AP/UB staying in business is, in the long term, hurting the profits of the poker community as a whole.

yes please do this so i can write a program that will turn AP and UB hand histories into a format that these programs can read and sell it for $30.

(tongue in cheek)

the poker community has spoken, and by and large they have said "we don't really care and are going to play there anyway."

The HUD is probably the feature that will make this work, if at all.

They might change their minds if they don't have a HUD or are stuck with PAHUD/PT2 and no ongoing support. Which is the whole point of this idea.

I am following this closely, but I cannot give our stance one way or the other. I have to discuss this with my partner and he's out of country on his honeymoon for the next two weeks. I'll let you guys know when we make a decision.

It has nothing to do with the hud. you write a program to take UB/AP hand histories and parses them and outputs them in the same format as pokerstars or full tilt.

making something like this is almost trivial.

[quote]They might change their minds if they don't have a HUD or are stuck with PAHUD/PT2 and no ongoing support. Which is the whole point of this idea.[quote]

if it was done the way i mentioned PT would just think it was a pokerstars hand or whatever.

gametime++ is opensource. im not familiar with the code but its probably not overly complicated to make a few changes to make it use whatever site the above mentioned program formats as on AP/UB tables.

i can even provide a patched version with my program that i'm going to sell for $30. (again, tongue in cheek, im not going to actually do this)

Signed.

Yes, yes we heard you the first time. We have all seen the web pages that can do that.


Are you going to also modify it so that it supports the database of HM, PT3, and pEV? Or just leave it using PT2?

If the only HUD working at AP/UB is Gametime+ I will consider this petition a success.