So we all know that UB/AP have stolen millions of dollars from their customers in two separate incidents. They also haven't been all that open in the investigations as evidenced by 2p2ers finding all of the superuser accounts before UB/AP investigators who have actual access to the records. Someone has also threatened one of the main investigators (Nat Arem).

There are many steps that we as players can and should take to punish these cheaters and make sure that online poker is fair in the future. For Americans, repealing the UIGEA and instituting some sort of regulation should be at the top of the list.

I think one step that might help is convincing software developers to refuse to support AP/UB. A large part of the 2p2 community and other serious players now refuse to play on these cheating sites. However, some players (mostly Americans without access to other "soft" sites) continue to play there because they perceive the games to be easier. Maybe they are or maybe they aren't. Without the use of HUDs and trackers these players will not be able to play anywhere near as many tables. This will hurt the sites by lowering their rake and encourage the grinders to play at other that are supported by trackers/HUDs. Hopefully this all causes a downward spiral and UB/AP go out of business.

Anyway, I brought up the idea of boycotting UB/AP in the PokerEV thread because PokerEV has not been released yet. Phil's response was:

I don't think PT3 supports UB/AP yet. Correct me if I'm wrong. So hopefully they will jump on board.

HM already supports UB/AP so convincing Roy might be a little tougher.

I haven't played with NotesNL so I have no idea what they support.

As an initial thought, the fact that PT2 was crucial in catching the first two cheating scandals is indisputable. However, in my opinion the idea that trackers should continue to support the cheating sites so that future cheating can be detected does not follow. They have already been caught twice. Twice is two times too many, especially considering the nature and quality of their responses.

Thoughts?

Massive understatement.

Exactly. And there is no need to detect cheating if people arent playing at the site in the first place. And if people are playing there after the way it was handled before then they deserve what they get.

Agree with everything and would love to see all trackers on board and only support hands prior to a certain date. And obviously no HUD support.

I'm all for it, I just want to be able to import my hands from before the scandals.

Here is what Phil said about this issue in the PokerEV thread:

Lots of other thoughts from Phil, Juk, Goofyballer and other respected posters are in the PokerEV thread. Hopefully they will all post in this thread and the developers of HM and PT3 will join in.

wat

Signed.

Since Phil's already agreed to do this if the other trackers agree, would really like to see Josh and Roy get in on this.

I'm against this.
There are sites that use Absolutes HH format as output for a converter. I hope these will still work in the nextgen trackers.

Are you saying there are websites that do something like Cake -> Absolute or something? HH parsing is really easy and I'm sure they'll adapt.

Against

Trackers are very helpful in catching the cheaters and we all know the sites certainly don't do a very good job at doing it.


...especially when they are involved in the cheating

Sounds good, as long as full refunds are issued to people who bought PT3 under the promise of UB/AP support months ago.

We already know they cheat. They have been caught twice and will probably be caught again. We don't need to catch them for a third time. Just go read Cornell Fiji "retraction" thread in NVG for a list of all the shady dealings that the KGC people are involved in.

I'm sure something other than refunds for previous purchasers can be worked out. I'm not sure if PT3 ever "promised" future support, maybe they did. The least they can do is disable support in a versions sold after a certain date. That should be really easy to do if they use the same type of registration system that HM uses (which I am more familiar with).

Just in case people haven't read it, then there is also this thread in the Zoo: Confession: I like UB & Absolute & could not care less about superuser scandals

Yes, the OP is pretty funny (ie: "I'd rather be scammed by UB/AP than play against 2+2er 'super-nits'", etc), but in some of the replies alot of people have put forward their ("semi-sensible") views and reasoning of why they continue to play their (ie: games are more juicy because of TAGs leaving, etc).

Juk

UB scandal sticky

I am not sure if this is not counterproductive? FWIW fraud was discovered and proven by users with the help of all the fishy data they gained with their tracker software. No tracker software - no reality check. Maybe a bad idea to buck the branch we are sitting on?

The only way we're bucking the branch we're sitting on is if we allow poker sites to repeatedly screw us over and get away with it.

The whole "we need trackers to check up on UB"-argument is flawed because it takes for granted that we should continue to play at sites that have already repeatedly been caught cheating their users.

We do not need to control data from UB any more. They're cheating. It's proven. The trackers have done their job and are no longer needed at UB for this purpose.

The sad fact is that boycotting sites that are caught cheating their users is the only recourse we have. As has been painfully obvious in both the UB and AP scandals, there is no legal recourse. The sites and people that decide to screw us have nothing to fear.

For this reason it is very important that the users take a stand once something like this is uncovered. And no, just making angry posts at web sites do not count as taking a stand. We need to boycott AP/UB. If people keep playing at these sites as if nothing happpened, what kind of message is it sending to other sites?

The reasons why some people continue to play at UB are pretty well known. Basically it's either ignorance or greed.

For the greed-people, I'd also argue that it's shortsightedness as the short term profit may very well have long term loss of profit consequences, but that's another issue.

Neither of these are arguments for keeping the trackers operational for these sites though.

You only need to worry about catching them cheating again if you are still playing there. And if you are still playing there, given the way they treated customers in the aftermath of the previous incidents, you deserve everything you get.

If you want to exploit the fact that the wider community has shunned these sites out of principle that is up to you. But you cannot expect the wider community, the ones you are exploiting, to help you keep the site honest while you do it!

Yes, something like that. Maybe HH parsing is easy but I would first want to know for sure whether they would adapt. Furthermore, I wouldn't withhold support for these sites because if people still play there its their own decision and if they want to track their results and improve their game, let them.

Actions like these will not stop people from going there.

There is a difference between stopping people and not supporting people. If they want to play there that is up to them. This is no reason why the rest of the community should help them if they disagree with the decision.

Are you an AP/UB player?

I hope you are prepared to get cheated out of whatever money you have on UB/AP.

If people still want to play there, we as a community should make it as hard as possible because these sites, enabled by their customers, are ruining the online poker industry. HUDs allow people to play 10+ tables, thus generating a ton of rake for the thieves and we as a community should do whatever we can to put them out of business.

Signed.

I haven't played on UB since March of '07 (and I never played on AP) and I certainly don't support them. However, I don't think it's my business to be using coercive measures to tell people what sites they should be playing on. There are risks associated with playing on these sites, and most players using a HUD are well aware of them.

And regardless of what HM, PT3, etc do, if there's a market for an AP/UB tracker, someone will make one. In fact, the most likely result of this imo would be some sort of hack or add on to the PT3 or HM software. Note that I'm not a programmer so I don't really know the feasability of such, but whatever.

I agree, and I dont really like the way eastern motors phrases it saying we should make it as hard as possible for people to play there. But I still think support should not exist for the sites.

The key words are "not support" as opposed to "prevent." I dont think we should see it as *preventing* people playing where they want to play. We should see it as *not supporting* these opportunists in taking advantage of the rest of us that are fighting back against these criminal sites.

They are exploiting and undermining our fight against these sites for the sake of a little extra short term profit, and on top of that want the community they are exploiting to help them detect/prevent cheating at these sites. Takes the piss imo.

I have to say I find this whole conversation quite hypocritical. We are a community and are entitled to our opinions, but who are we to tell the software developers of these trackers, who are business entities I might add, what sites their software should support? By doing so we are no better than the American government who passed the bill which dictates to the banks what charges their customers(US citizens) CAN"T spend their money on(Poker sites). We all have opinions and also the freedom of choice to play at whatever poker site we choose, but we do not have the right to ask these software developers to not support specific poker sites which may cause them to loose customers and revenue.

I use to play on UB, but have since withdrawn my account and no longer do. This was a choice I made when I heard of the cheating scandal. I share the opinion of many people in this community when I say I hope UB/AP eventually go out of business for letting this happen, but all I can do is voice my opinion and account for my choice. The people who still play on those sites are responsible for their choice, as we all are, and will have to deal with any consequences.

Also, like someone posted earlier, even if the software developers stopped supporting UB/AP, someone would come up with software to support it or write a parser to convert the HH's into another site's format to be imported into these trackers.

All we can do is voice our opinions. The software developers are creating their software to make money and who are we to ask them to limit their potential customer base?

We have every right in the world to *ask*. Customers make demands, requests and suggestions for most products/companies all the time.

You'll find tons of examples where customers are even boycotting products and companies for policies or practices the customers feel strongly about.

We have every right in the world to suggest this and appeal to the developers to listen. Wether they do or not is of course entirely up to them but to claim that customers have no right to voice their opinion on such issues is completly wrong.