Before today, the servers were constantly scanning, and updated about once every minute (sometimes two, depending on lag and the # of tables available) for the full list of mid-high NL and LHE tables.

Today's server upgrade (I finished it literally 2 minutes before typing this response) resulted in the ENTIRE NL and LHE lists (low stakes included now too), at the same refresh rate, with more reliability.

We have considered releasing the scanner software with Sixth Sense, but so far have decided against it.
1) it would take a completely dedicated CPU
2) It would be a complicated upgrade that not many would take advantage of
3) we have a LOOOONG list of upgrades that would take priority over an upgrade like this.

Despite not being able to run the scanner yourself, using the list generated by our server should be just as accurate (probably moreso) than if you were operating it on your own system.

Hope this answers your question

-Dan

What information is being sent from my computer to the server? How can we be assured that nothing personal is being uploaded? I'm awful weary of any program that needs to connect to a server, especially when its coming from a new/unreputable poster....

PS. Charging for a beta is beyond ridiculous and you might be the first ever to try and do so....

As one software company owner to another, I'd like to offer some advice. The only reason your software accesses your servers is for a table list, correct? Something that could be done on the client machine. I honestly don't see many people paying monthly for this. Make it an option. Have a subscription service for people who want to offload the processing, and have a one-time payment option for those who don't. If you don't, I believe you'll severely limit your potential number of users.

One MAJOR thing that I think is being overlooked (and I probably didnt make a big enough point of it) is that the final version will support a variety of different sites.

For example
Say you want to search for the most profitable tables in NL100-400 on PartyPoker, Crypto, Prima, and B2B. If the scanner was client side - ALL of these lobbies would need to be opened, and would have to be scanned separately. The process would take probably 5-10 minutes, and by the time you're done - the best seats could have been taken, the best tables could be broken up, etc. A LOT happens within 5-10 minutes.

Once we support server side scanning of these sites, not only will you be able to generate an entire list that is less than a few minutes old, you dont even have to have a single lobby open. You can pick your best tables over a list of sites without even logging in.


I do like your suggestion for a fully-client-side version for a 1-time fee. Such a program would be much more limited in capability, and take up a decent amount of CPU load than a server-run list...but if there is a demand, we would work on such an upgrade.

Thanks,
Dan

No personal information is being sent to our server whatsoever. (except for your email address when you sign up)

Honestly, any software you download could be connecting to a server without you knowing it.

You are correct that it is hard to trust a new poster, but I hope to gain the trust of the forums through excellent support, question+answer sessions on this thread, and upgrades based on feedback in this thread.

As for the paid beta - When we release the beta, it will be when we (and our users) believe it is a good enough service to be worth a payment. And this will be when we have full PartyPoker support and most of the bugs are worked out.

We could just as easily call it a full release when that day comes, because it will be a worthy product.

Keep checking back. We have been very devoted to this project from the beginning, and I would like to continue to build my credibility and prove that we would not do anything to jeopardize all of the time and effort we put into Sixth Sense.

Thanks for your time,
Dan

I know very little about programming, but I am also wary about anything that needs to connect to an external server from my machine...but there is a potential solution here:

* First of all, I like the server-side scanning -- PTS is also very slow and buggy for me and I haven't really used it at all.

* BUT, there seems like there would be a solution for those that want frequent server-side table scans without having to send any data from their machine...make it some sort of continuously-updated list that your subscribers can quickly download from a members-section of your website, which can then be imported into the client software on the user's computer.

For example: at any time, a user could log into the members-only section of your website, and download the most current version of your scanned table-player list...which will be updated as often as you're able...so I'd download a file called 313pm.sxth or something proprietary like that, which your software on my machine can then import, and generate a list of tables that meet my criteria.
I'm sure there were a dozen things wrong with my suggestion, but I think you see what I'm getting at...there should be a way for you to figure out how to get the updated list of players to the user's computer without the need for a direct real-time connection that will make people (myself included) uneasy.

This will of course come at the expense of a little bit of speed, and it's true that 'a lot' can happen in 10 minutes, but let's not exaggerate things...if a 'good' table breaks in a few minutes, it's not a table where a player was going to make a big score anyway.

Very excellent points, Teddy. I really appreciate your feedback.

Your suggestion really isnt very far from what is currently happening.

Our server isnt some big mean data-exchanging system that has constant access to your PC.

You log in, it sends your Sixth Sense username/password, software version #, the game types you chose from the list, and that's it.

This is the same amount of information that would be transferred if you were...say...logging into a members only section of a webpage (minus the software version that is)

One thing I would also like to stress - this isnt a constant server connection. No data transfers are made after you've logged in until you click the "Refresh" button, which requests the latest list from the server. Essentially, there is no difference between this, and hitting the Refresh button on internet explorer if we were hosting the list from a website.

As for the whole 10 minutes having a big effect issue - You should try using the program, but dont refresh the table list for 10 minutes and see how accurate the results are. I play poker professionally, and have spent a large amount of time testing this tool. I can guarantee you'll see a very large difference between 2 and 10 minutes

I think that covers everything you asked/suggested. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

And thanks for your time - I say that in all of my posts, but I really mean it. We have put our blood and guts into this program and we REALLY appreciate all of your feedback, good and bad.

-Dan

If this is the case, is there anything stopping you from making the data-exchange very transparent to the user so that computer-savvy people (which I am not) could essentially verify for the rest of us peons that that really is the only data being exchanged? I really don't know how all this works, but I'm suggesting to you that this is likely to be the biggest hangup for people (that and the monthly fee...yikes, that can really add up!), so I recommend doing everything in your power to make the 'scariest' part of the process as transparent as possible.

All of the data transfers are visible and available if you check the Log in Sixth Sense (ctrl+L). I guess if someone wanted to, they could sniff out the packets that are sent to and from the server to make sure we arent hiding anything.

I invite...actually, I WELCOME any of you computer savvy people to come check the program out and confirm that nothing malicious is going on. Such a confirmation would be very positive for our credibility.


It seems like it would take a 3rd party unaffiliated with us to go through and confirm that Sixth Sense is legit. All we can do to earn your trust until then is continue providing support and upgrading the program.

Thanks again
-Dan

WRONG

Somebody needs to write software that protects the fish... Poor fishies.

Seems like two really good products but each with their own strengths and weaknesses. I guess it will be a race between PTS adding server controlled table lists vs Sixth Sense allowing more customizability / control over the fish list.

Personally I hope both of your products fail because I don't like sharing my fishy friends with others j/k (kind of) Good work on the programs.

rvg

I gotta admit, this was my first response, too. I know other software (e.g. PTS) doesn't send anything because it doesn't SEND anything; it works while firewalled from the net. Since yours will require constant back&forth with your server, I'm more concerned.

If you watched my cards/passwords WHILE charging for the beta, I'd be super impressed.
-Sam

The constant back and forth is limited to how many times you hit the Refresh button. Nothing is sent/received unless you hit that button. So if you want it to run in the background until you need to find another table - no data transfers whatsoever.

I hope someone comes in here and does a thorough security evaluation. We're really not after your passwords and hole cards - just your sign-up cost

Ill check it out when you run the beta. I tend to stay away from alphas until betas because they offer increased reliability and more options. Sounds like a great piece of software and i hope you get enough attention to keep developing it.

Well its free now. Beta wont be. I'd suggest giving it a shot while it doesnt cost you anything. But thats just me

But we are moving this project forward at a VERY fast pace. This feedback has driven us to get things moving

V1.0.0.16 is out!

Here are a list of the upgrades. You'll see alot of your feedback has shown itself in this version

SERVER UPGRADES:
1) We now support ALL party NLHE and LHE tables
2) Faster + more reliable listing

CLIENT UPGRADES:
1) "Open Table" button added. Doubleclick any table in the Sixth Sense program while your PartyPoker Lobby is open, and it will search/open the table for you! No more easter-egg hunting!
2) Buddy list! Unlimited buddies, but if you have more than 500 or so it might slow you down. You also now have the ability to score your buddies (1-5) based on their profitability. If you do not want to use the scoring option, you can now sort the table list by the # of buddies seated.
3) CUSTOMIZABLE FISH SCORING - Choose your own rules and apply it to all of the players you have statistics on.
4) Fixed a bug in the Sixth Sense fish scorer which caused scores to show up incorrectly in full ring games.

You asked for it, we did it. Just wait to see what comes next

SixthSense -- looks very cool. Could you give a quick FAQ on how to create custom scoring rules? Thanks!

Hmmm, I'm not getting any scores. Anybody else having this problem? It's definitely querying the PT db, because the # of hands, etc. show up. Any ideas?

You could just publish the data in an XML file on a webserver like RSS and then the user could manually download hte file to their HD and then us it that way. Would solve the problem of ppl being paranoid.

im probably completely misusing this software.

but is there a reason why you cannot refresh and it never does?


what am i doing in correctly =[

Personally I'll never download any software that:

1) knows I play poker
2) sends anything anywhere

Having my security breached is WAY too much of a risk (compared to the tiny benefit any such software could provide me).

It would be far too easy for the software to transmit innocently for a long period (eg. 6 months), but to meanwhile capture and store on my machine (in a form I couldn't identify) any 'useful' stuff about my security (eg. user names, passwords, account details, etc). Then to transmit it all in one little, innocuous packet. (For this reason I will never allow any 3rd party poker tool to automatically check for updates.)

Even one such successful 'raid' could net the thieves far more profit then they'd ever be able to earn from selling software. What they could earn from a hundred or more such raids beggars belief (and negates trust).

Who is doing these "Security Reviews"? Who is paying the cost of them? How do we know the results aren't faked? Etc. Clearly there is no formal process for this, it is just people throwing an impressive sounding phrase around. "Security Reviews" are impossible in any package that gets updates, unless there is a very formal, independent and expensive process in place. That clearly ain't gonna be happening here.

I may be paranoid. Heck, I AM paranoid - but I know that there ARE people out there who are after my money. This company may (or may not) be among them. The benefit of their software doesn't come close to compensating for the risk.

Please check your log file, there might be an error message there. The most likely culprit is not selecting your PT database correctly. Be sure to follow all the directions on the Sixth Sense site for setting it up to find your database. Also, in the dialog to select your database, be sure to try the "Test Connection" button before you close the dialog to make sure it works.

Let me know how that works.

We understand your concerns. There are some options to help you increase your security.

You can install and run Sixth Sense on a user-level account (as opposed to an admin level account). In Windows XP it is simple to create a new account like that. Then you just run Sixth Sense (SS) with that user, and do a Switch User back to the account with Party Poker. You will lose the ability to directly open a table using SS, but gain security and peace of mind.

Finally I assure you we have no desire to hijack any of your passwords, etc. I am a software developer with 14 years of experience, and have developed several reputable products and websites.

Please see my reply to TheAnswer. Also, open the custom scoring dialog (CTRL-S) and make sure "Use Custom Scoring" is NOT checked.

I'm getting the popup "Scored x Tables and y Players" and the log shows "Scoring Tables" and then "Scoring Finished". I doublechecked that the "Custom scoring" was unchecked, and still no luck.

It's definitely seeing the PokerTracker db, because it's pulling in the stats on the people I have played with. Any other ideas?

Another thing that would be nice is the ability to hide full tables.