Hello all, back in October I posted the following thread:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/4...-play-1692484/

A very quick summary is that I had questions about final table play as I had reached 6 final tables and was the first out all 6 times. Almost 4 months on from that thread, I come back seeking further advice.

To add some detail to the original thread in the hope it adds some context and helps clarify what I am trying to achieve. I am a complete rec. player, playing low stakes (Sub $5) NL/PL Omaha8. I have been reasonably successful, especially in satellites (more on that later) but my problem is an inability to ever reach the final 3 of any MTT. Since my original post I have reached 17 further final tables..........and every single time I have been the first knocked out. No matter how the hands have played out whether all in pre flop, or seeing a flop and playing after, the result is always the same, I lose in a sweep, 17 of 17. No whining about bad beats or anything else, those are the facts.

I have also played in a few (<20) satellites to bigger buy in games, and have been extremely successful, winning seats in over 50% of the satellites. Unfortunately, like my final table performances, the result has been 100% the same. Make it right to the bubble and then get busted and take home nothing.

One more thing I wanted to add is that I have also played some KO tournaments, done well, but never manage to knock out a single player and get no bounties.

So with the above information, what should I do? I know all about variance, and have seen all kinds of bad beats and suck outs galore, that is not what I am concerned about. I am very confident in my overall level of play, having been able to navigate fields of 200-300 to reach the final 10 players. Do I have a valid concern about my performance at the final tables? Is the sample size still just too small to draw any conclusions? Is there some specific adjustment or type of play that needs to be made to finally crack the top 3 of an MTT? Is there some kind of correlation between my performance in KO MTTs and performance at the final tables?

One final note. I do spend a good deal of time watching the people I consider "good players" especially in the later stages of an MTT, and there is nothing I have seen that struck me as remarkably different or unusual about the way they play. I read as much as I can, and also make sure that I am always varying my game so as not to be too predictable. Finally I am a rec. and the money we are talking about (a few hundred $$) means nothing. I am focused strictly on the intellectual and competitive challenge of playing well, and one day being able to say that I won an O8 MTT.

Thanks in advance for any and all comments and advice.

Maybe you know all about variance, but you don't understand it at all, since you posted this thread.

There is nothing me or anyone else here can say that will improve your results. Post hands that you feel uncertain about if you want to improve. But right now all you are asking is "how to run better"?

hi, from reading your posts it seems to me you might be playing too conservatively in the tournaments. This would tie in with winning satt seats (where you need to be a little less risk averse) and not winning any bounties in ko's (where sometimes you just have to stick it in). Do you play the same all the tournament, or do you like to creep into the cash and take it from there?

If you want to win its vital to chip up asap, and get maximum from any spots you can.

Do you limp/fold too much? Do you fold the flop if its not a 100% perfect fit? How often do you get to the final table with the same opponents, if you do any of these things they will take advantage.

Yeah probably playing too conservatively in some spots, and playing a bit too predictably when it gets down to mostly regs. Not many easy generalized answers for that, welcome to poker lol

I appreciate all of the responses so far, and would like to add a bit more to clarify.

I believe am fairly familiar with variance and hope I understand it, having played cash games for over 40 years (yes I am an old man! I play in my free time for enjoyment and the mental challenge). I realise that MTTs are a different animal, and have learned a LOT so far in how different MTTs are from cash. I think I have done pretty well so far and moved up the learning curve a lot, I just wonder what it takes to make a top 3. There is almost no information on what is considered a good rate to finish in the top 3 or win an MTT. Is it 1% of all MTTs entered? 0.1%? 0.001%? I honestly have no idea, but I sense that there must be some kind of skill or special play involved as you get to the final table. I just do not know what that is, and hope some of the more experienced here could shed some light on the topic.

As far as the comments about being too conservative, they are absolutely spot on. When I first started playing MTTs, my initial objective was to min. cash. That was a bit more difficult than I imagined, but when I finally did that, it seemed no big deal. It was another big step to reaching a final table. That took another change in my game to ensure that I had enough chips to actually play, and not just shove all in and hope as a small stack. My satellite wins have all been me just squeaking in or as one of the smaller stacks. In every instance I did not as much "win" my seat, but rather just held on and outlasted the other small stacks who got beat on a pre flop all in.

I think the idea of chipping up ASAP and then getting the maximum value from spots is a good one, but how do I do that? Just play like a maniac Russian/Brazilian shoving all marginal spots and hoping for a double/triple up? Then what? Continue to push marginal edges, or throttle it back a bit and try to get it in much better after that?

One last bit of information/observation. From the MTTs that I have final tabled, the chip stacks are all relatively close. I have observed many higher stakes MTTs where the top 1 or 2 will have 100~200 BB while everyone else has 50 BB or less. In the MTTs I am in, it seems that pretty much the biggest stack will have ~50 BB and everyone else will be between 20~40 BB. So usually no dominating player, and no reason to shove all in pre due to small stacks. What I have observed is that once I bust out, and someone has a very large stack relatively speaking, things loosen up and the MTT moves along much quicker. I have played at a few final tables for almost an hour with no one going bust or making any kind of headway, but once the first is eliminated all h#ll breaks loose. Is this common?

Once again, I really appreciate the previous posts, and hope maybe I can get some further insight and finally make a top 3.

Depends on how many players enter the tournament. If 100 players enter the pool and all play identical strategy, you should make a top 3 finish 3% of the time. If you are much better than the field maybe you make a top 3 finish 4% or even 5% of the time.

Why would there be such a special play and what could it be? Maybe if villains spew, you can exploit it by simply waiting. Or if they nit, you steal. Even then, there will always be key flips that largely determine the outcome. Like I already said, these questions reveal that you don't understand variance.

So if you want to improve your results, all you can do is improve your play. In order to improve you play you should be discussing how to play in different spots. Right now you are just wondering the wrong things.

even at micro stakes there are times when you have to play the players, and almost forget about your cards. Listen to amok and post hands from several spots, and you will get advice

I have seen people who have had similar issues to you OP.

I would say to you what I have said to them.

1) Play some 1/2 tables sngs AND hu sngs. This will give you vital experience to give you a winning edge where it counts deep in MTT'S

2) Try to win every MTT you play. Yes there are some spots where you want to be conservative but you need to be hungry and have the mindset of a winner to win MTT's.

3) Especially when deep in MTT's you need to find the donkey and exploit them. If there is no donkey open up your range against aggressive players especially in position and put pressure on the nits where it is appropriate. Pay attention to stacks sizes and increase your gamble against stack sizes that are not fatal to your game.

Thanks again for all of the replies. I think amok may be misunderstanding me, or I might not be communicating myself very well. In the interest of clarity, let me re-phrase my question:

Over the course of ~500 micros stakes (<$5) MTTs averaging roughly 200 players, I have reached the final table 23 times, but have yet to make a top 3 finish. Is this in line with normal variance, or do I need to be examining my final table play even more closely than I already am, and/or consider significantly changing my final table playing style?

Just to give you some sort of idea what I put into the game when not playing:

40 years playing mostly stud/2~7 lowball/PLO
Read over 30 books, 8 specific to PLO8
Spent $1,000 for coaching/advice/hand review from a well respected PLO/O8 expert.
Spend about 1 hour a day reviewing hand histories and/or simultaneously railing some of the higher stakes games and people I consider good players.

I honestly do not think specific hand histories will provide much insight. Of the 23 final tables, 8 times I was calling an out of position all in shove for more than 20BB with AA2X or AA3X, 10 times it all went in on the flop with me having 60% or better equity, the other 5 times I was between 40%~50% but was already basically pot committed. All 23 times lost in a sweep. I REALLY do not like calling an all in pre shove more than 20BB deep, but with AA2X or AA3X what choice do I have?

Omahaha, thanks for the great insights. Your post is exactly the kind of experienced opinion I was looking for. I did not even know that O8 SNGs and HU SNGs existed! I will definitely give those a shot. I know that my problem might be a lack of aggression or gambool in spots, but it is hard to know when to shift gears and take the shot.

P.S.

I just made another final table yesterday. We played with 7 players for almost 1.5 hours with no one making any real headway. Almost every hand was either raised and folded pre, or bet out on the flop and folded. My last two hands were: I raised 3X on the button with A2KK, called by the small blind. Flop came 234 all diamonds, the small blind shoved and I folded, leaving me with 8BB. Two hands later I got AA25 in middle position, I shoved got 2 callers and the board ran out KKQ79......one of the villains had a K and knocked me out in 7th and the other guy out in 6th.......

Yes aggression levels are very difficult to get right. I think it is important to have both a tag style and lag style under your belt in MTT's. Then you can play whichever style suits a given table better. This has the added value of making you unpredictable.

It is a constant struggle to get the balance right with different table dynamics. Too much agression in the wrong spots and you will end up being an equity dog too often to make up for what you gain in picking up the uncontested pots Too little agression and you become too easy to play against and also these days you do not add enough value to your game to be a decent winner.

From the info you have given it does sound like you are playing too tight. If you always have the best hand all in preflop then you are giving up value. Because you should be taking lines that are profitable enough long term but are not profitable in every case. I guess this largely comes back to playing individual players rather than your cards.

You are way too tight if you manage to have hands like AA2, AA3 in bustout hands. Any AAxx is favourite in preflop allin and should almost always get it in. Also betting or calling with top 10% hand 30bb deep or shorter and folding to preflop allin is very bad preflop and not betting them in the first place is bad too - thus a lot of bustout hands should be A2xx with nut suit or something like that. Also you should yourself try to collect big preflop pots with hands that are close to 50% WHEN CALLED by your aggressive villains. This includes reraising allin hands like AK47ss and A556ds against loose opponents. I win money in NL O8 tournaments and my typical preflop bustout hands are fairly weak. Since you are never way ahead even if you pick your spots carefully 30bb deep or shorter, you need to win at least close of your share of the blinds. That means winning one in six hands in a 6--max game, which also means playing at least 20% of hands in the first place.

As someone that's won a number of live low/midstakes PLO8 (200-600$ buyins) tourney's and just briefly reading over this -

Well first I'm really curious the chipstack you keep ending up with... Are you always in one of the last couple of spots when your final tabling?

In general it sounds like your playing too tight but would be great to see some hands.. When it gets down to almost the final table try and take a different route of accumulating chips.. Try first just adding an extra 5-10% range of aggression.

IE any borderline hands try going with particularly with the option to RFI if your able to be the first to raise... especially in position and take some pots.. try considering range when they call... IE. allow low board .. they are generally more likely to have something so try and steal the pot when they do call..

there's a lot of subtle things... helps to see hands though... including some borderline folded hands probably.. or postflop folded hands..