Getting back into my 4/8 and 8/16 saddle.

Late position, kill pot 8/16, may have been 2 bets pre, don’t remember

QJT9ss (no clubs)

Flop KJ8hcc 4 ways, early position bet, 3 calls

Turn 7h Bet, I call here because I only have one heart blocker. 4 players to the river.

Is this ever just a fold with the nuts? (The games I play in a turn raise here is never getting any low or flush draw to fold). Or is that more reason to raise?

Fwiw I rarely play non-two way hands

Thanks

It's certainly not a fold. I'd raise.

Yeah, that's a raise

Raise>fold>call. It's closer to a fold then most replies think, imo. The spectre of being quartered is almost bad enough to make raising -ev. One more villain, or a specific villain whom you know is an expert, and I think raise/fold is indifferent. I'd like it if my scooping chances were a bit higher. Still raise though., especially cause if you scoop or 3q you can pick up river bets from two way hands that overvalue their highs.

For me, folding it simply ridiculous. You need to be sure there is another T9 out, and there is nothing indicating that yet. Raise>call>>>fold.

The combo of wanting to play this hand pre and considering folding turn is pretty wild to me. I'm with amok 100%

I avoid hands like this pre for the exact reason that I have to occasionally fold the nuts. Really for call>fold we need a decent chance to scoop. You think there's a decent chance to scoop?

This is not true at all. You know its a fixed limit hand right?

I didn't initially, but I realized it after rereading OP. I realized it was a lot closer but decided not to edit because I still stand by the comment. Why isn't it true? If we're getting quartered here, turn call is break even and any river action is -EV.. If we're taking half, were not likely to get over calls anyway, and there's a chance we have to call more then one bet otr. Even if no low comes, we're not guaranteed to scoop. Is there some equity you see that I don't?

Fwiw... Not sarcastic. If your 08 understanding is even half your hold'em expertise, then assume I'm missing something and honestly wanna know what it is. I've only played fl08 in mixed games, but in my admittedly limited sample, this is a raise or fold spot.

So now we need to explain why calling with the nuts can be better than folding? I have no time for this nonsense. Better look under your bed though, might be a quarter lurking there!

From your thoughts here it seems to me that the mistake in your process is not thinking about how much money is already in the pot. You will often have to put in a bet badly on the river in fixed limit poker, but that's not a big deal when the pot has 6-10 bets already in it.

btw in PL/NL my answer is the same: raise>call>>>fold, barring very deep stacks. I have no idea what is this "raise or fold" nonsense when holding a strong hand. At least stop drawing to hands that you dislike when you hit I guess.

I actually don't play big bet poker. LHE is my bread and better, and I've recently taken an interest in mixed games, although I think I'm still -EV in alot of them. I'm totally familiar and comfortable with putting in the last bet as a pretty big dog, but in LHE (and most over variants) it's the fact that when I win, I win the entire pot that makes think river calls and vbets profitable l. In flo8, you're overly is often a portion of the pot, so the pot odds are nowhere near as enticing as they look.

I don't like calling here because each additional call raises my chances of getting quartered. I like to raise my nut high with no redraws because if i get the pot heads up or even 3 handed, my chances of taking half and even scooping go up significantly. If the previous statement is incorrect, that means I have a really bad understanding of standard ranges in this game and I have more to learn about it then I thought. I believe that I'm a breakeven or losing player at mid stakes flo8, and am willing to defer to the judgement of players who have more experience with this variant (like both of you for sure). Btw, I fold this hand pre most of the time. I definitely definitely fold it pre here. Is this a mistake? Am I undervaluing too many high only hands in multi way pots? I think that even with position, this doesn't look very profitable. Tell me if I'm wrong - I do see players I respect showing up with hands like this at a surprising frequency.

There are some boards where its a fair concern to be quartered (when a wheel is present usually) but this one is a weird board, its not common for there to be another T9 out. And btw our hand does have a small redraw to a higher straight. I think conceptually something you have wrong is that you would rather raise and try to protect a vulnerable hand (and maybe call with like the nuts and nut flush draw?). This is def backwards. When you will hate a lot of rivers you don't want to bloat the pot.

Getting quartered is just not a big deal in limit o8, if 4 people see the river and you get quartered you broke even anyway. Its far from a disaster and not in the top 10 things I'm thinking about in these kinda spots. Preflop was likely bad here, these sorta hands fit into the category of "situationally ok" and in general people over rate them.

I totally get that logic, ty. Although I'm wondering then why you agreed with raise>call?

I appreciate the dialog, I don’t play these hands frequently. I tend to agree
raise > fold > call in this particular game, and I rarely call the river bet when the scary card hits multiway even if I should be calling more, only particular players bluff.

Spoiler (if anyone cares):

This is an interesting hand so I decided to write down the cards that will give better hands or splits

any heart or club then flush possible
pair any board card then full house possible
ten or queen higher straight possible

any ace through 6 then low possible

when you mention 2 bets pre, you meant raises so there was $96 in pot pre-flop?

if you raised flop, would you have lost low draws or were they sticky after they already put in a bet?

on the turn when you got the straight, if you raised would you still have 4 in hand?


I always think what is my dream card - for you it seems either 9 spades or 9 diamonds assuming your 9 in hand is neither
then you would win or share the entire pot

if any A through 6 low (no clubs or hearts), then win or share high and maybe all if low draws counterfeited


as mentioned previously, marginal starting hands frequently stay that way through the entire hand

too bad we do not know what others had to run equities on each street

Correct it was $24 to go pre.

To be fair it is a very loose and draw heavy game, which is why I even posted the thread due to the player pool and types.

Raising the flop to $24, does not get rid of any nutted backdoor low, does not get rid of any nutted backdoor flush, does not get rid of any front door flush, does not get rid of the top wrap/open ender. Flop raise MIGHT get bottom two to fold, or Top and bottom, in this game top two will see 5 cards almost every time.

The turn raise does less, bottom two may fold as well.

I also wish I would have taken notes of the hands to see what I was up against. Will try and keep track next time.