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Omaha/8 Discussions of Omaha High-Low Split (Eight or Better) Poker.

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Old 03-24-2019, 09:32 AM   #1
DalTXColtsFan
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PokerGo O8 hand

This hand was from the Dolly's Game show - for those who have a PokerGo subscription here is a link: https://www.pokergo.com/video/dollys...xed-games-day1

The hand in question starts at about 1:34.

8-handed. Hanson and Lamb fold,
Kasella raises with AA52,
Zack folds, Alberto folds,
Elezra coldcalls on the button with Q442,
Brunson calls in the SB with AT63,
Gorodinsky calls in the BB with JJ83

Question 1: If Kasella was instead a typical smallstakes loosepassive who would literally only raise with an A2 would you still make the coldcall Elezra did on the button with what looks like a trash hand?

Question 2: If MP and BTN were typical LPs instead of pros would you still call from the SB with that hand?

Question 3: The BB's call - I know he's getting 7 to 1 but he's essentially setmining with a good chance of competing for half the pot. I can't see making that call like EVER.

So to the flop, 4 players, 8sb, Q73
Brunson checks, Gorodinsky checks, Kasella bets, Elezra raises.
The commentators explained that Elezra likely has the best high hand here given the action and is trying to charge hands to try to draw out on him.
Brunson and Gorodinsky fold, Kasella calls.

Question 4: I'm actually surprised Kasella didn't rereaise. Elezra's raising range there is very wide. Was there some metagame to that decision? In a smallstakes game would this be a no-brainer 3-bet?

Turn, 2 players, 6bb, K
Kasella bets out, Elezra calls. No-brainer from both players in all but the most unusual table conditions.

River, 2 players, 8bb, T
Question 5: I assume that b/f and b/c are both completely out of the question. The only real question is, c/c or c/f? Against a player like Elezra you can't c/f getting 9 to 1 on a call with an overpair, but what about in a smallstakes game?

Hope the hand was interesting.
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:13 AM   #2
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Question 1: No, I think elezra's hand is trash especially multiway pot, I would fold even if I were on a 9 handed loose table.

Question 2: It's not an awfull call, but I rather Calling with Ax of same suits, you can still flop something with this hand.

Question 3: I think I would fold this hand more like all Omaha Hi/Lo hands,
It has no connection, Pot odds migth be okay but this hand it's only drawing to a Set and almost Never gets action.

Question 4: Calling it's Okay, He's behind of QQxx, Q72x and he's not way ahead of hands like 4567, and also when he hits the Low, He is still not way ahead, I would Stack Off with this AA53 if I also Had a Flush Draw.

Question 5: I think that when Elezra only Calls the Turn he's saying that he has not KQ, KK or QQ, he must have 2 low pairs with a Bad Low Draw, or only a Q with a low draw, so this is a big Tell I think, because Kasella is clearly saying that he has Aces with a Low Draw, So on the River if Im kasella, Im check/Calling depending on the sizing elezra's using, because there's some bluffs that he can have and think that He almost never can Bet two low Pairs when the Straigth hits on the River.

Edit: On a Smal Stakes Cash or Mtt I'm almost always Check Call the River because I don't think villain can ever only Calls the turn with a Set or Top Two Pair on a non Flush Draw
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Old 03-24-2019, 12:27 PM   #3
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Q1: I would definitely fold Eli's hand in this spot. Low pairs are super-garbage and he doesn't even have a one-card gap to a nut low (i.e. A3 or 23)

Q2: Call seems fine

Q3: I'm almost always calling with this hand. This situation in particular (four-ways) is one where I could see a fold being defensible. But in general the pots odds are too good. Yeah, you are mostly set-mining, but this like most O8 hands have a good deal of small equity in their other card combinations. And a high pair is much better for set mining than a low pair in O8 (thus the JJ in this hand is much more valuable than the 44 in Elezra's).

Q4: I like the call, especially given his response of betting out on the K turn. Calliing leaves all options open on various turn cards.

Q5: I think you need to C/C given the pot size. Eli does still have a few bluffs here (e.g. A45 and 456), and his range is somewhat capped, though it is hard to conjure a thin value bet that you beat.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:30 PM   #4
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Q1: Call is bad. We could make an argument for 3! This hand at a low frequency, especially since this hand plays poorly multiway.

Q2: in many cases defending a weaker a3 from the sb is mildy speculative, but seems fine

Q3: super standard defend, we should defend pretty widely for 1 bet

Q4: i dont think i agree with this commentary - there are several reasons eli can want to raise here but it shouldnt only be because he expects he is ahead, he may not even think he is ahead - i expect kasella is flatting the majority of his hands here now that it is hu for balance

Q5: pretty much all options are on the table including b/c and b/f.. player history is relevant but bare aaxx should expect to lose most of the time and xr does not have much fe.. xc vs wide ranging opponents here, especially those raising flop with lots of a2xx
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Old 03-28-2019, 09:31 PM   #5
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Shocking that Eli owes a bunch of people money isn't it?
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Old 03-29-2019, 01:40 AM   #6
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
Question 4: I'm actually surprised Kassela didn't rereaise. Elezra's raising range there is very wide. Was there some metagame to that decision? In a smallstakes game would this be a no-brainer 3-bet?
Kassela could be way behind here. His low draw is very strong, but his high hand is only one pair, with no straight or flush draws other than a backdoor wheel draw. Plus, he's out of position. You know that Elezra is at the bottom of his raising range here, but Kassela doesn't know that.

Here's what happens if Kassela reraises the flop: Elezra calls 100% of the time, reserving the option of raising the turn with his strong made hands and just calling the turn with his weaker made hands and draws. So Kassela's reraise on the flop doesn't give him any useful information. Whereas Kassela's turn bet does give him some useful information, when he sees how Elezra responds to it.

But this is just speculation. I have to assume these two players have a lot of history with each other, and I'm sure that history factors into the line Kassela chooses here.

I don't think a reraise in this spot is a no-brainer in a small-stakes game. Maybe if you flopped the nut flush draw along with your nut low draw with backup, a reraise would be in order. But if the button has a strong made hand (like a set or top two pair) and the low doesn't come, you could get nothing. And if the button has A2Qx—or even A27x or A23x—he could end up either scooping or winning three-quarters if he makes two pair.

In Kassela's spot, I'm never betting the river. Whether I check-call or check-fold will be highly player-dependent and read-dependent. Unimproved pocket Aces is a bluff-catcher in this game. But if Elezra is raising the flop with A2xx, there's
some chance one of his side cards is a Jack (for Broadway).

Also, it's easy for someone to end up with some random two pair here (as Brunson would've done had he stuck around). Would two middling pairs make a thin value bet on this river? Probably not in a small-stakes game. But if I bet this river with my unimproved Aces, I can expect to be called by just about any two pair—my opponent will hope I have exactly what I have, AA2x, maybe with a missed heart flush draw as well (that would explain why I retook the initiative on the turn after relinquishing it on the flop).
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:03 PM   #7
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Here's another PokerGO hand:

Temporarily 7-handed.
Kasella is UTG with A569 and raises.
Brunson, Gorodinsky, Sklar and Elezra fold, and the SB folds.
Snyder defends in the BB with Q653

Flop comes 492

Flop goes check, bet, call

Turn 5

Turn goes check, check

River 8

Synder check-raises the river. Kasella calls.

So questions:
1. Thoughts on Kasella's open raise? I wouldn't even consider opening that hand UTG, even at a 7-handed table, until I had a lot more experience. To try to get heads up it's better to do it with a 2-way hand which Kasella's hand is not.
2. If I'm reading the board correctly, Kasella has a 6542A low, and Snyder has 65432. That means Kasella actually has the BETTER low does it not?
3. Isn't A6 the second-nut low on that board, only beaten for the low by A3?
4. Thoughts on Kasella checking behind on the turn with two pair, a low and a flush draw?
5. One of the commentators said Snyder was getting freerolled on the turn. I don't see how he was getting freerolled - an A on the river gives him a wheel. Am I missing something?
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Old 04-13-2019, 04:02 AM   #8
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

1. Kassela's starting hand ranks 17.0 ten-handed and 15.0 six-handed. And any hand with a suited Ace and a wheel card has two-way potential, especially heads-up. But I think it may be a mistake to try to compare what pros are doing in a high-stakes, slightly shorthanded, televised game against your (or my) low-stakes, full-ring game. For all we know, Kassela is gambling more than usual precisely because the cameras are on him.

Did you see what he did on Halloween, playing NLHE? Start watching this video at 11:50: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwtWrH672go. Kassela has reraised preflop with a pair of black jacks, the flop comes Q84 all spades, and he shoves all in for 2.5x pot. Then he shows his opponent the Jack of clubs (huh?). She has KQ of hearts, and it takes her a moment to comprehend that there's no way he can have her beat. Maybe he meant to show her the Jack of spades—maybe he was drunk or got caught up in the silliness of that night; maybe he just doesn't care about money. Maybe we shouldn't put too much stock in what he does on TV, is what I'm trying to say.

2. Correct. They both have a 654xx low. So which number is lower, 21 or 32? 21, obviously. Or looked at another way: they both play the 542 from the board, so which number is lower, 61 or 63? 61, obviously.

3. Correct.

4. He loses to a wheel, doesn't he? If I were in Synder's seat and I had a wheel, I would go for the check-raise here. Maybe Kassela fears the check-raise. Though I'm with you: I would bet this turn from last position with Kassela's hand.

5. No, you're right, and the commentator's wrong. If you watch enough Omaha livestreams, you'll hear mistakes like this a lot. With four cards in multiple players' hands and three or four cards on the board, there's a lot of information for the commentators to perceive and process in real time. Ideally, you'd have two or three commentators who are all experienced enough Omaha players that they can correct mistakes like this very quickly.

But in this case, the correction would be that Synder has 3 outs for a scoop (the 3 remaining Aces), whereas Kassela has, what, 9 clubs plus 2 9's plus one 5 for a scoop (that's 12 cards total)—plus 2 non-club 3's give him both the wheel and a 6-high straight, for three-quarters of the pot. So I'd say Kassela has a partial freeroll here, but it takes a minute to count up their respective outs accurately.

Not only that, but Kassela can't possibly know he has a partial freeroll (unless Snyder accidentally exposes his entire hand). If Snyder has a wheel, Kassela is drawing to get half, or maybe three-quarters, but he gets nothing if he doesn't improve.
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:15 AM   #9
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Thanks agamblerthen. Both of the commentators were very surprised when Kasella checked behind on the turn.

I think it would be interesting to ask the question, "When someone defends their BB with only the raiser still in the pot, what does their check-calling range look like on a 492tt flop?" If I'm at a table where a lot of pots are being contested heads up on the flop I rack up and go do something else, but nonetheless, I think it's interesting to discuss.

Everybody was defending their BB fairly wide, even heads up, so I would expect Synder to "peel one" on the flop with a lot of flush draws, straight draws, low draws and combo draws as well as some marginal made hands. Of course, he might also peel one on the flop with some monsters intending to check-raise the turn (and maybe this is what Kasella was afraid of), but I think the monsters are a small part of his range.
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Old 04-13-2019, 11:39 AM   #10
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Kaselas open is speculative. Even upgrading for a second suit, this hand should normally not be played from ep.

I also prefer betting the turn with his hand, its more than strong enough. As played, river is not that interesting. B/c seems normal. Leading the turn with 63 can also be good.
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:06 PM   #11
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
Here's another PokerGO hand:



Temporarily 7-handed.

Kasella is UTG with A569 and raises.

Brunson, Gorodinsky, Sklar and Elezra fold, and the SB folds.

Snyder defends in the BB with Q653



Flop comes 492



Flop goes check, bet, call



Turn 5



Turn goes check, check



River 8



Synder check-raises the river. Kasella calls.



So questions:

1. Thoughts on Kasella's open raise? I wouldn't even consider opening that hand UTG, even at a 7-handed table, until I had a lot more experience. To try to get heads up it's better to do it with a 2-way hand which Kasella's hand is not.

2. If I'm reading the board correctly, Kasella has a 6542A low, and Snyder has 65432. That means Kasella actually has the BETTER low does it not?

3. Isn't A6 the second-nut low on that board, only beaten for the low by A3?

4. Thoughts on Kasella checking behind on the turn with two pair, a low and a flush draw?

5. One of the commentators said Snyder was getting freerolled on the turn. I don't see how he was getting freerolled - an A on the river gives him a wheel. Am I missing something?

1) open is on the looser side but fine. He has a suited ace with a wheel card and can make some surprisingly strong hands on middle coordinated boards with this hand (if he makes trip 9’s for example, his opponent is liable to spew against him).

2) kasella does have the better low

3) yup. However A3 makes up a fairly large chunk of Snyder’s range. If Snyder comes out swinging, it should be met with caution.

4) I like a check for the reasons above. Snyder made a straight here a bunch and is checking it over to Kasella because, well, so did he. There’s some hands Kasella can pound against, like Snyder probably calls down A654 in horrible shape, but really, Kasella has an okay two way hand.

5) you’re right. An A river gives Snyder a 6 hi straight and a live 3 (on an A245 board that’s a wheel).


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Old 04-13-2019, 10:35 PM   #12
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Re: point 3, snyder having a lot of a3 in his range.. i really don't think that should be the case

First based on his bb defending range, and second because a3 will often take more agressively lines than xc on flop.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:15 PM   #13
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Re: PokerGo O8 hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
1) open is on the looser side but fine. He has a suited ace with a wheel card and can make some surprisingly strong hands on middle coordinated boards with this hand (if he makes trip 9’s for example, his opponent is liable to spew against him).

2) kasella does have the better low

3) yup. However A3 makes up a fairly large chunk of Snyder’s range. If Snyder comes out swinging, it should be met with caution.

4) I like a check for the reasons above. Snyder made a straight here a bunch and is checking it over to Kasella because, well, so did he. There’s some hands Kasella can pound against, like Snyder probably calls down A654 in horrible shape, but really, Kasella has an okay two way hand.

5) you’re right. An A river gives Snyder a 6 hi straight and a live 3 (on an A245 board that’s a wheel).


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from a theoretical standpoint shouldn't he/most players be leading out the turn there with the 6 high straight? instead of attempting a c/r
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