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Old 08-18-2017, 12:49 AM   #1
mongoose0141
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PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

Alright, I've made a couple posts here already, but I'm an NL player trying to learn PLO8. This is a hand I recently played where I'm unsure about my decisions at pretty much every point. I felt like this hand had a lot of marginal spots, so I'm interested to see how more experienced PLO8 players would have played it.

Didn't have PT4 running for this hand so I'm just gonna write it out.

Game is 5-handed. Hero is in the CO with AA79. Stacks are 100 BB effective.

UTG limps in. Here's the first spot where I really don't know what to do. I have a lot of trouble with strong high hands with bad low features preflop. I don't love this hand as a raise, since I'm drawing to a 7 low with no counterfeit protection. The 9 in my hand is also not a great card. At the same time, it is pocket aces with a low, so it kinda feels like I should just go ahead and raise.

Ultimately, I decide to overlimp. I didn't want to open, because the hand really only plays well one way. Additionally, if I get 3bet I'm probably gonna have to fold, which isn't ideal. At the same time, folding pocket aces pre just feels like it has to be wrong. Is this an okay play? Is there a better action here?

Anyways, BTN folds, SB completes, BB checks. We go 4 ways to the flop.

Flop comes 467. Action checks to me. Here I feel like we should check and just see some turns in a 4 way pot. I check behind and we take a turn.

Turn is the T creating a backdoor FD and giving us a gutshot. SB checks, and the BB bets 1/3 pot. UTG folds and it's on me. Folding to such a small bet after action checked through OTF seems really weak. I decide to peel with the overpair, gutshot, and 7-low draw. SB calls

River is the 8 completing the backdoor flush and giving me a straight to go along with an 8-low. SB checks, and the BB checks as well.

I think this is where things get interesting. We have a marginal 2-way hand with an 87 low and the 2nd nut straight on a 3-flush board. We also have 2 blockers to the nut low, as well as a blocker to the nut flush in the A.

I feel like if I check, I'm generally going to be chopping. I think it's hard for either player to have a strong 2-way hand, but at the same time, it's easy for me to be beat in at least one direction.

It seems unlikely either player has a very strong low, as the flop checked through and I hold two aces. I would also expect either player to bet pot OTR if they made a strong flush with the 8. I decide to jam pot as a semi-bluff to try and take down the whole thing.

My thinking is that I will very rarely get scooped. In order for someone to call this bet, they would probably need a strong low and a good high hand. Since I have the A, I actually block most of the villains' scooping hands, and they're probably weak anyways after the way things went down up until now. I felt like this was a relatively low-risk bluff with a good chance at taking down the whole pot with a marginal hand. Thoughts on this play?

Really appreciate the help guys! I'm aware I probably butchered this hand at multiple points, but there isn't much learning material out there for PLO8, so I'm just trying to learn by playing and getting feedback on my hands.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:27 AM   #2
FRGCardinal
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

I'm confused. You hold a 7h and one flopped, so the deck is fouled, or there's an error in your HH (I assume the latter). Also, the board is a Badugi on the turn...

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Old 08-18-2017, 12:44 PM   #3
ngFTW
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

i didn't think that last thread with the 8(75)6 hand had really anything to do with reverse implied odds.
8(75)6 gets too much of its equity from splitting and not enough from scooping and when you play a hand shorthanded or hu which was clear by the preflop situation you were in, you were in a situation where splitting is rarely if ever profitable.
This hand history i think you would be well served to think about reverse implied odds. as always you also need to concern yourself with valuing your hand taking into consideration half-pot value.

*** i'm referring mostly to the turn. preflop is a different discussion, and the river is probably a different discussion***
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Old 08-18-2017, 02:02 PM   #4
Spreek
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

Preflop, this hand benefits a ton from isolating and lowering SPR. But I'm OK with limping in a loose game if you are going to go multiway very often even after raising.

Postflop, I'm going based on your descriptions (and not the cards you show which are nonsense). Flop checkback is good.

Turn is pretty meh, obviously we have some equity. But I also think that you are gonna get blown off it a lot. You can basically never call a big bet on river (and there are few rivers where you are going to want to bet yourself). I would prefer a fold.

River, your low is basically nonexistent. A live A in a multiway pot where the low came in on the flop is pretty much dead (especially when the 8 is relatively unlikely to have counterfeited many lows). It's probably better to think of your hand as a one way hand because you are winning low so rarely when called.

I also actually don't like having the As blocker that much either. Reason being, the nut flush is very incentivized to bet in this kind of spot; smaller flushes (especially combined with a mediocre low) are less likely to.

Let's break down what kind of holdings that villains can have taking this line:

* Air/counterfeited lows. Very unlikely since the flush came in and the 8 shouldn't counterfeit many lows besides 86 (which is also a straight).

* One way low hands. This will be mostly naked A2 with the occasional A3. I disagree with your assessment that villains are capped on the low side when they take this line because it is rarely a good idea to bloat the pot on the flop with a naked low hand 4 ways. It's doubtful that naked 23 or worse is going to continue on the turn (and note that basically all combo low + high draw got there by the river). A2 is never folding, naked A3 might fold sometimes/often.

* One way high hands. I don't expect a lot of naked 86 or 89 since such passive lines were taken with the nuts on earlier streets (but it's possible I guess). There will be some naked flushes but it's not that likely that someone would draw to a non-nut flush 4 ways on a board with a made low. When he does have a naked straight, he will probably fold (especially if it is SB), but most players probably won't fold a flush?

* Mediocre combo hands. Certainly both players can have some weak low + straight, weak low + two pair, weak low + set, and weak low + flush. I would actually judge this to be a large part of their range. The weakest parts of this range might fold (a hand like 2364 or something), but I think most of it will not fold, especially not from the BB.

So basically the hands we are targeting here are the naked A3 and the worst combo hands. But given that we can definitely easily be scooped here (especially if both players call), and we have to get through twice as often as we get scooped, I prefer to check back.
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Old 08-18-2017, 03:33 PM   #5
amok
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

I think the flop is a clear bet. Yes, it's a bluff. Your hand won't improve to anything decent by checking.

I can't comment on other streets as the board is incorrect.
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Old 08-18-2017, 04:33 PM   #6
mongoose0141
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

Yep, board is obviously wrong in the OP. Should be the 7 of spades, not the 7 of hearts.
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Old 08-18-2017, 04:41 PM   #7
mongoose0141
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by amok View Post
I think the flop is a clear bet. Yes, it's a bluff. Your hand won't improve to anything decent by checking.

I can't comment on other streets as the board is incorrect.
What makes this a good spot to bluff? We have no outs to improve and it's a multi-way pot; both of those things are generally contraindications to firing a bet in NL. How should I be evaluating these spots differently in PLO8?
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Old 08-18-2017, 10:40 PM   #8
greybeard33
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

I would raise pre as I don't want to play this hand multi-way but almost never folding it. It isn't strong enough 2-way for me to want to play it multi-way.

I would bet flop for reason amok gave.

I would fold turn even to a small bet - the only advantage to limping this hand is it makes it easy to get away from when the board has a low, a straight, and a flush draw on the turn.

I would check river, especially since you waited until the flush came and the board didn't pair. No one has any real idea why you're betting, so they will easily talk themselves into calling with even a bad low now, and even moreso with a lesser flush (especially if that flush has a low). IMO it is very easy to get scooped here.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:39 AM   #9
amok
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose0141 View Post
What makes this a good spot to bluff? We have no outs to improve and it's a multi-way pot; both of those things are generally contraindications to firing a bet in NL. How should I be evaluating these spots differently in PLO8?
In a limped pot, you get checked to and are last to act and you block heavily the strong hands (=A2). Mainly this is the reason I bet. You also have some showdown value if turn and river get checked down.

Reasons to check are usually to give up or to take a free card. With your hand a free card is not that beneficial, so I have no qualms betting and folding to a raise.
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:46 PM   #10
kisada
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Re: PLO8: Marginal 2-way hand on the river

pre's fine. but don't go on thinking this is a spot where you'd raise and fold to a 3-bet though preflop.

flop i think is a bet for reasons stated above. in a limped pot, 4-way, and checked all the way to you usually means people don't want any part of it. you have a good opening to take it down right now so go for it. even if someone calls you, they define exactly the strength of their hand on turn/riv because they will bet if they hit something and you're not calling those streets anyway.
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