Also GTO is close to irrelevant in FR O8. Nearly all the money is made from exploiting mistakes ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(Aq)tx5y is a top 10% hand and the best overall hand slightly less (~47%) than half the time. This suggests that folding is likely to be a mistake. From there it mostly becomes a question of limp/raising frequencies.

Even in a toughish game, where you can argue this hand will not be profitable / profitable enough, having hands like this in hero's range should still be valuable.

And what is the goal of three-betting? To get it heads-up against AQT5?

The high card value of the AQT5 makes it more playable if it's heads-up.

Building a bigger pot in a hand where I have position and a stronger range.

Agree it's a fine hand heads up and would happily open it in late position but multiway is has issues wrt reverse implied odds. Probably marginally profitable (from utg) if game is loose passive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I got the impression when you said "Get ready for the 3bets" that you were going to three-bet with a wide range.

If you're only going to three-bet with a stronger range, then three-betting is no big deal. That's going to be a small percentage of your hands and many of them aren't going to have significant equity advantage.

The A5TQ suited to ace is a top 10% in terms of hot/cold equity right? But I would imagine that is over inflated due to the “wins” it gets on turn and river when better lows get counterfeited but in actual game play you would no longer be in the pot.

Don’t think we suffer from reverse implied odds as I doubt many of us would be fishing around trying to hit a three outer to make second nut low or something like that but realizing the equity would seemingly be the real issue.

And in O8b if someone is opening light the only real defense is to call with most hands and chop up equity as what hurts marginal is having lots of players play against it. This straight from Ray Zee in Split FAP. But of course if you getting dealt monster heads up hands like AA34 and A2KK warn that guy to get ready for some three bets...

Yes top 10% is showdown equity using the pql methodoly

I don't really think it is misleading though. Being dealt 4 random cards, a player will be dealt a-wheel combos a little less than 1 in 5 times. Of all possible ace wheel combinations, this hand should clearly be in at least the top half, if not the top third, regardless of methodology It will never be far behind any non ace-wheel hands, even premiums like aa6 or kk23.

I expect hero loses the most equity post-flop folding when a5 actually wins or should be chasing part of the lo. I agree that it is not really a reverse-implied odds hand, at least not in any traditional sense.

I think this hand is somewhat analogous to something like opening middle pairs in hold 'em: ex. 77-99. These hands are strong enough to open but can be dominated, miss hard and non-experts may not be skilled enough to play them profitably.

What do you guys consider a nut nut draw, and on what street do you have it?


say turn is 2c5cTsKs

one guy has Ac3h4dJh
another has As3sJcQd
another has 9cJdKhKd

do they all have nut/nut draws?

Third guy has the current nuts and a K is the only card that can give him nut high with no possible low.

Usually nut/nut draw is going to refer to NFD+NLD on an unpaired 2-flush board, or NSD (at least open ended) + NLD on a rainbow board. If you only have a gutshot draw with NLD, it's much more accurate to just say that.

Second guy has like super nut nut nut draw.

What is the pql methodology? I think it is misleading in the sense that it really is not a 10% hand. According to the pql does it say it is better than A238o? I agree though that it is in top quarter of possibly 20% of hands all things considered. But that really doesn't translate to a must play for me UTG in a FR. In theory I think we need to play tight in EP in a split pot game.

But I'm never playing FR O8b anyway. At most it is 7 handed. I think this is a nice hand to limp dic in EP seven or six handed. It is a nice offset to the low only hands like A234 because I can continue on many high flops with it. But I need to be suited to the ace.

(A5)TQ is not a "must play" from UTG. But neither is it a hand bad enougn that playing it would tag someone as a fish or a losing player. Observing that a player raised, limped, or folded this hand would give me information about his play style, but by itself almost no information about his overall skill level or profitability in the game.

The pro poker tools / odds oracle methodology for hand ranking can be viewed in more detail from the site, i will attempt to summarize by saying that it ranks hands by showdown equity against other 'good' hands, believing this presents a better representation of value than if everyhand was ranked against purely random hands

Without getting too much into the technical details (i don't have a deep understanding of the process), I think that giving (aq)tx5y a ranking of a top 10 percent hand (and no better) is correct and even seems somewhat intuitive in the context of total a-wheel combinations

I also understand that the playability and profitability of various hands utg will be viewed very differently based on game conditions - personally, I think folding this hand utg with 9 or less players would be a mistake but fairly small - positional costs are important to think about.

And yes it does consider it a stronger hand than a238r (22% Rank)
About exactly same strength as (a8)2x3y (11%)

Thanks, I will check out the site.

Pro poker tools does not rank hands among their playability multiway.It can not be described how bad this hand is multiway.You virtually can not ever scoop the pot,if

you don`t flop straight or wrap with flushdraw you always have marginal hand.How are we going to make money with this?Can we continue on any Ace high flop if we don`t flop

top2 or nfd?What about chasing low draw with a5?Again pure burning money,0 value.

Burning money seems too harsh. In a full ring it's probably neutral or maybe you may lose a fraction of a bet over time. It could even be slightly profitable. The only thing I know for sure is none of us can prove our position. We are assuming no one on here is chasing a low draw with an A5 though which is how you would burn money. But as you say, we may not have enough situations post flop to continue on with to justify our initial commitment.

However, I do think it may be a better play than a dry A2 hand like A27J unsuited. Those hands are way overrated. Plenty of ways to lose money there, chasing lows that don't pan out, getting quartered, getting counterfeited on the end etc.

Saying (aq)t5 is a terrible multiway hand is a laughable assertion, I hadn't responded only because it shouldn't really require any explanation among experienced omaha players

If you find another advanced player that things this is very good hand to open utg FR i would be more than happy to change my mind.