Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Omaha/8 Discussions of Omaha High-Low Split (Eight or Better) Poker.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-15-2017, 02:03 AM   #1
mongoose0141
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 21
Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 PL Hi/Lo - Omaha Hi/Lo - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 103.5 BB
CO: 245 BB
BTN: 82 BB
SB: 122 BB
Hero (BB): 50 BB
UTG: 54 BB (VPIP: 38.10, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
UTG+1: 39 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8 7 5 6

fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, fold, SB raises to 4 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB

Flop: (12 BB, 3 players) 7 7 3
SB bets 11.5 BB, Hero raises to 46 BB and is all-in, fold, SB calls 34.5 BB

Turn: (104 BB, 2 players) 6

River: (104 BB, 2 players) 5

SB shows 4 T A A (High: Two Pair, Aces and Sevens, Low: 6543A)
(Pre 57%, Flop 31%, Turn 53%)
Hero shows 8 7 5 6 (High: Full House, Sevens full of Sixes, Low: 87653)
(Pre 43%, Flop 69%, Turn 48%)
SB wins 49.5 BB
Hero wins 49.5 BB

1 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

---------

Hey guys. In the past, I've been almost exclusively an NL player, but lately I've been trying to pick up PLO8. I'm looking for feedback on both my play and my thought process, which I'll lay out below.

Preflop, I'm really not sure whether this is an okay call. The NL player in me thinks this should be a clear defend; I would expect the SB to open a wide range vs. a single open limp, and we have not great but seemingly playable single-suited rundown with some low potential. With that said, I'm a very inexperienced PLO8 player, so I'm not really familiar with the preflop dynamics yet. Is my thought process here okay, or should I be folding this pre?

On the flop I obviously decided shoving was the best option. I don't want to fold trips and gutshot to a single flop bet, but calling and having to fold OTT seems like a disaster. I can get Villain off his equity if he had like an A4 or A3 low draw. Also, even in the worst case scenario, where Villain has A27, I still have at least some outs with the gutshot/backdoor wrap. In general, I felt like this was a good spot to shove, but not entirely sure.

Here's my hand's equity against the range I estimated Villain would call a flop shove with:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
11,972,000 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 773

Even when we tighten Villain's range to be more specific, I still come out a substantial favorite:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
11,972,000 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 773

And finally, even in an absolute worst case scenario, we're still essentially flipping:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
2,984,800 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 773

So what do you guys think? How did I play this hand before and after the flop, and how strong is my thought process here? If I'm thinking about things the wrong way, how should I be approaching it differently? Thanks!
mongoose0141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 02:07 AM   #2
belg_owner
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,226
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Standard GII spot.

Preflop i would like to see a fold since we dont end any action.
On the other hand its 2$ pl, we can see a flop cheap and get it in versus wide villains.

Dw, you played it well. Just variance.
belg_owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 10:27 AM   #3
FRGCardinal
veteran
 
FRGCardinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: BOO YA, BABY! TWO PAIR!
Posts: 2,020
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
8h 7s 5s 6d28.85% 87,520202,72810,54965,2808,256
1%-30%35.58% 128,609187,67216,811107,53126,847
1%-30%35.56% 128,542187,64216,710107,59726,677

Fold pre. Post flop is fine as played, IMO. Middle card rundowns are fine in PLO, but are very hard to scoop with in PLO8 and you're often betting/calling to just get your money back.
FRGCardinal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 02:05 PM   #4
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Im a nit, and not a plo8 expert. I would fold pre and fold flop. we only get action from better 7xxx (since we have about the worst 7xxx) and A27x is crushing us. AAx will not fold a low draw, and barring a counterfeit will get half the pot, which is what happened.

Then again, ima nit, so maybe disregard....
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 03:49 PM   #5
monikrazy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
monikrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 23,904
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Shoving flop is obviously fine, probably fold pre though
monikrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 03:49 PM   #6
SetofJacks
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,129
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Im a nit, and not a plo8 expert. I would fold pre and fold flop. we only get action from better 7xxx (since we have about the worst 7xxx) and A27x is crushing us. AAx will not fold a low draw, and barring a counterfeit will get half the pot, which is what happened.

Then again, ima nit, so maybe disregard....
Agree with fold pre, do not agree with fold flop.
A7xx is so unlikely - far more likely is AAxx or A2xx e/ suited ace.
Also A2 doesn't have a low yet and is therefore not guaranteed half the pot.

Trust me, it doesn't always come in.
SetofJacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 03:53 PM   #7
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
Agree with fold pre, do not agree with fold flop.

A7xx is so unlikely - far more likely is AAxx or A2xx e/ suited ace.

Also A2 doesn't have a low yet and is therefore not guaranteed half the pot.



Trust me, it doesn't always come in.


Yeah, after my initial nitty spasm wore off, I can see that once there on the flop, gii is profitable.

I would just never have the hand, unless in the BB and with nothing invested on the flop I would just not care enough to check-shove my stack.

Agreed, as played, get it in.
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2017, 09:13 PM   #8
mongoose0141
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 21
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Thanks for all the help guys!

Seems like a lot of the advice here is saying that I should have layed this down pre. What are some of the worst hands I should be defending from the BB here if not this one? Like I said, still trying to get a feel for things.
mongoose0141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2017, 02:13 PM   #9
Niggel
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 750
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

I have nothing too much too add, but would like to contribute some thoughts.
You seem to be somewhat new to the forums in general and to PLO8 in specific so "Welcome to the Forums"! For a new poster I love the way you converted the hand (maybe hide the results though), spelled out your thoughts, asked specific questions and even ran some simulations. This will help you get good answers which will help you improve quickly.

Preflop: I am folding this all-day long but I am also somewhat nitty. You state that you think that the SB should "steal" here with a wide range which I don't think is true. If Villian was on the Button I would agree that his range should be somewhat wide, but in the SB (which means being OOP postflop) I think most people would just complete most hands and only raise their best hands (maybe Top10%-15%). To me this really isn't a stealing spot for SB and I don't think you should raise here very wide if you are in the SB yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRGCardinal View Post
Middle card rundowns are fine in PLO, but are very hard to scoop with in PLO8 and you're often betting/calling to just get your money back.
This really is a key lesson, that these kinda hands rarely scoop which should be your main goal in PLO8. I often have trouble figuring out how bad/good my hand is and I usually run them in ProPokerTools to find out how well they do in general and also taking note if they play better in a FR or a SH situation.

Rankings for 8x7y5y6z: http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...5y6z&s=generic
As you can quickly see our hand is really not that strong. Bare equity numbers don't always tell you the whole story though. You also have to think about the playability of the hand which is quite troublesome in this example IMO. Even when hitting a nice flop like this one we are still not too excited to get it in here (especially when deeper). A hand like AKQJ rainbow might be an even worse hand equity wise, but it is usually easier to play postflop. I might be wrong on this, but I don't like hard decisions and it makes my life a lil easier (Not saying that I would call with such crap in this spot!)

I sadly can't give you and example of what I would call with here, but probably not more than 20%. Though, as other more experienced players have pointed out before there are many PF strategies which can work in PLO8 especially on these micro and lower stakes.

Postflop: Flop Shove is totally okay with these stacksizes, but with 100B behind I would tend more towards a call. Also when running these kind of simulations keep in mind that Villian will probably fold some hands here after c-betting which makes a shove even more profitable.

PS: How do you display these simulations in such a nice manner? Is there a special function for this on the site?
Niggel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2017, 04:23 PM   #10
SetofJacks
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,129
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Middle-card rundowns are fairly weak in PLO8 because when you hit your low, you're probably beat, and when you hit your high, someone will usually make a low.
Low-card rundowns and high-card rundowns are much better, because you will frequently scoop when you hit.
KQJT you're not likely to continue unless there are at least two cards 9+ (or 89), so you will usually scoop when you continue and win.
5678 you're looking for something like a 347 flop and then you're already chopping / getting freerolled.

I would defend the 5678 for one more bet in FL but not against a 4x raise in PLO/NLO
SetofJacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2017, 12:02 AM   #11
mongoose0141
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 21
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niggel View Post
PS: How do you display these simulations in such a nice manner? Is there a special function for this on the site?
Yep, there's a button you can click under the table on the PPT website. Thanks for the help!
mongoose0141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2017, 12:14 AM   #12
mongoose0141
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 21
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
Middle-card rundowns are fairly weak in PLO8 because when you hit your low, you're probably beat, and when you hit your high, someone will usually make a low.
Low-card rundowns and high-card rundowns are much better, because you will frequently scoop when you hit.
KQJT you're not likely to continue unless there are at least two cards 9+ (or 89), so you will usually scoop when you continue and win.
5678 you're looking for something like a 347 flop and then you're already chopping / getting freerolled.

I would defend the 5678 for one more bet in FL but not against a 4x raise in PLO/NLO
This was a helpful post. As an NL player, I tend to think of BB defense more in terms of pot odds. From that perspective, we certainly have enough equity to call regardless of whether or not SB comes along:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
8h7s5s6d42.73% 153,271275,2223,992133,6715,661
20%57.27% 238,761320,7863,992177,9895,661

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
8h7s5s6d29.43% 89,733215,2797,44058,2575,003
20%35.21% 125,840180,69018,826103,89538,547
20%35.36% 126,323181,44518,997104,15738,418

However, it seems like the feedback I'm getting (and the point of your post) is that I should be focusing more on playability/reverse implied odds in PLO8. Obviously, both of those are bad in this situation since I never make a strong low. Therefore it'll be hard for me to realize my equity facing action and I'll frequently find myself being freerolled. These factors make this hand a fold despite getting the immediate pot odds. Am I getting this right, or am I still missing something?
mongoose0141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2017, 09:51 AM   #13
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose0141 View Post
This was a helpful post. As an NL player, I tend to think of BB defense more in terms of pot odds. From that perspective, we certainly have enough equity to call regardless of whether or not SB comes along:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
8h7s5s6d42.73% 153,271275,2223,992133,6715,661
20%57.27% 238,761320,7863,992177,9895,661

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
8h7s5s6d29.43% 89,733215,2797,44058,2575,003
20%35.21% 125,840180,69018,826103,89538,547
20%35.36% 126,323181,44518,997104,15738,418

However, it seems like the feedback I'm getting (and the point of your post) is that I should be focusing more on playability/reverse implied odds in PLO8. Obviously, both of those are bad in this situation since I never make a strong low. Therefore it'll be hard for me to realize my equity facing action and I'll frequently find myself being freerolled. These factors make this hand a fold despite getting the immediate pot odds. Am I getting this right, or am I still missing something?


Um, you nailed it dude. You are a great poster and give great info and process feedback and summarize it exactly.
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2017, 02:04 PM   #14
kisada
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,007
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

pretty much the gist of it yeah.

split games place a very high value on the playability of a hand. that's because you'll find yourself in spots where you're hanging on for dear life on terrifying boards vs strong action.

so yeah if the hands were face up, you might have actually enough equity to continue with one hand, but it's not. and based on board texture you might get a treacherous flop that will potentially become worse on the turn, all while villain is throwing PSB's your way. and if your hand was middling to begin with, sure you make your hand but you get screwed cause his low's better than yours anyway, or he was freerolling to NFD/NLD on your trips. etc.

some advice i would recommend is to just think of hands in terms of how much heat they can withstand on a variety of typical flops. the more heat they can take, the more you'll see why you can get away from hands like these.
kisada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2017, 12:05 AM   #15
mongoose0141
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 21
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Um, you nailed it dude. You are a great poster and give great info and process feedback and summarize it exactly.
Thanks, I appreciate the help!
mongoose0141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 02:33 AM   #16
assortednuts
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 174
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

The flop that arrived for was the exact reason that this hand gets folded by me in the bb more often than not. Even though you got what appeared(?) To be a good flop, with any serious action I will almost always dump it post flop. That being said, once you call a pot sized raise otf you are shall I say, "in deep" if you don't fill up ott. IF, I have a lot in my stack and the hand is say, 4 way and limped, well, you almost have to go all the way with it. And, it just doesn't pay off enough to stack off w/o the absolute nut boat imo. Plus, you will never, EVER scoop, PERIOD! But if cheap enough, it's playable, barely. But feel free to play it vs me.
assortednuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 01:06 PM   #17
LUCIUS VARENUS
Soldier of Minbet
 
LUCIUS VARENUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 10,275
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by assortednuts View Post
Plus, you will never, EVER scoop, PERIOD! But if cheap enough, it's playable, barely. But feel free to play it vs me.
I echo the sentiments about the lack of quality in the starting hand for all the reasons other posters have stated, but to say you will never, EVER scoop, is dishonest.

For example, on this flop, it is not terribly unlikely that
a) hero is the only one with trips
and
b) that the board will run out with high cards, board pairs and cards which counterfeit the low draw of the opponent(s)

If that happens, the hand will scoop at showdown.

Considering the game is pot limit, it will not be usually necessary for b) to occur both on turn and river because the (what should be large) size of the turn bet will usually induce the opponent to fold and concede their equity.

There may be some reverse implied odds with trips on most runouts, but sometimes it can be compensated by villains who fail to fold their aces.
LUCIUS VARENUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 01:23 AM   #18
assortednuts
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 174
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Good points all except that flushes, really any reasonable low draw can always free roll you. Yes, it wasn't technically true about stopping but I would say over 90% you won't. That's " never" enuf fer me. But I play no drama style emphasizing no problem hands get played for more than the minimum. However, anyone with a 7, can have a 9, correct? What happens when one falls and you face a big bet? And surely it CAN be played. By a good to better than good player. I will see the flop knowing that anything less than the nuts gets folded otf facing big action. Been there, mucked that. Gl all...
assortednuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 01:26 AM   #19
assortednuts
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 174
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

For Christ's sake, do I have to baby sit every word I type? I hate kindle posting. Oh well.
assortednuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 10:25 AM   #20
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

For learning purposes, if we are villain, which combos are we willing to gii with, facing hero's all in reraise on the flop? Other than A27x, A37x, A233.

AA2xr...?
A23xr...?
A334r...?
A245r...?
A2KKr...?
more?

Thoughts?
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 12:57 PM   #21
kisada
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,007
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

villain starts hand at 50bb's, and only has to call a bet of 34.5bb more after the raise, so all those hands you posted are trivial to call with.
kisada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 01:26 PM   #22
robert_utk
adept
 
robert_utk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kisada View Post
villain starts hand at 50bb's, and only has to call a bet of 34.5bb more after the raise, so all those hands you posted are trivial to call with.


Thanks for the help.

-Rob
robert_utk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 02:06 PM   #23
kisada
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,007
Re: Okay flop shove, or too loose? (PLO8)

i wanted to add that the tougher decisions come about when you're deeper. for example, at 100bb's you have to start doing some math to figure out where you stand.

so on ppt or whatnot you'd run those specific hands vs what you think your opponent's pot raise means.

for example you know he is exceptionally tight so he only is willing to do this with full houses, A27* and AA2*. you run that range against what you got and see how your equity plays out and it allows you to see which of your hands are good/bad vs his range.

fwiw at 100bb i see all those hands as pretty standard ship hands except for the A23, which i think i'd fold to a re-pot by opponent (assuming we're SB and they are hero, as you presented).
kisada is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online