I'm new to Omaha Hi/Lo and would like some advice on how I could have played this hand better. We were seven handed and it was a very passive game preflop. There was almost no rasing before the flop in the 15 minutes I played prior to this hand. The UTG+1 was fairly passive after the flop as well. Here is the hand with my comments:

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $24.90
UTG+1: $30.55
UTG+2: $4.95
MP1: $38.40
MP2: $25.35
Hero (CO): $24.70
BTN: $46.35
SB: $10.65
BB: $18.35

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with K 2 4 3
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, BTN calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, BB checks

This is a fairly speculative hand but I'm in the cutoff seat and this hand is worth limping in to see if I can catch a flop that gives me scoop potential.

Flop: ($1.25) 9 A 5 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds

This is a good flop for my hand and the UTG+1 comes out betting the pot. I call to see if I can Turn a wheel and hopefully some others will come along for the ride to help increase my pot odds. I considered raising here but I thought that might thin the field and I didn't want that if I hit my hand.

Turn: ($3.75) 8 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $3.75, Hero folds

Unfortnately, we end up heads up and the UTG+1 bets the pot again. This is a good indication that he either has the nut low or made his flush. All I have is the nut low that can't be counterfeited but I have absolutely no high hand to speak of. My thoughts were I was possibly playing for half the pot at best and I have a chance of being quartered too so I folded. Am I fearing "Monsters Under the Bed" or did I make a good lay down because we were heads up and my High hand was very weak? Any comments from experienced players would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I don't play cash as much as others, but it seems unlikely that UTG+1 has both the 23 and the clubs, and you do have a wheel draw which may be good if villain does not have the clubs.

Flat call turn, and either flat call river if no wheel, or consider potting it if villain slows down on a pair card or a wheel card.

I think you have to call him down here just to see what kind of hand made him come alive. That's a turn I usually raise but you've mentioned that it's an ultrapassive game and opponent so that might slow me down a little. Call turn, and be ready to nail him if a scare card hits on the river and he checks. I like your line and reasoning though PF and on the flop.

Welcome to the forum.
I'm not a pot limit expert, but that seems reasonable to me.
I'd be interested in reading some expert opinions here.
Tough spot. There is a gigantic difference between fixed-limit play here and pot-limit play. In fixed-limit play when five have seen the flop and two have continued to see the turn, Hero roughly breaks even if he gets quartered.

On the other hand, in pot limit play, Hero isn't really looking at a $3.75 bet. It's really a very possible $3.75*4=$15 bet. And to either win half or a quarter of the $3.75*9=$33.75 that will be in the pot at the showdown.

33.75/2=16.88
33.75/4=8.44

So if Hero wins half the pot, he wins $1.88, but if Hero only wins a quarter of the pot he loses $6.56. Hero is risking $6.56 to possibly win $1.88. And Hero will be taking a pounding.

Sounds distinctly unpleasant.

But 656 to 188 corresponds to roughly 7 to 2.

Does Hero get half more than 7/9 of the time and only get a quarter less than 2/9 of the time? Seems like UTG must have the flush or at least probably a better high than Hero will make with a wheel - does UTG also have the low?

Or without the flush, with only one card to it, does Villain figure Hero is probably playing for low? With one club, and a low, maybe not as good as Hero's, a Villain with math skills might figure (from Villain's perspective) that Hero has 24486 ways to have the flush (126+2940+21420) out of 135751 possible hands.

24486/135751 = ~0.180.

82/18=4.56.

Thus from Villain's perspective, it's about 9 to 2 that Hero doesn't have the flush. And even if Hero does have the flush, it's probably not the nut flush. Is Villain betting here to steal the pot?

I think there's a very good chance of that.

So what is Hero to do?

From Hero's own perspective, since he doesn't have a club, Villain is slightly more likely to have the flush. 29535/135751 = 0.218
722/218=3.3
About 10 to 3 against. (and that would be Villain's perspective without any clubs)

I can't tell you what to do. Seems to me from here that there's a very strong chance Villain is bluffing or has the high with no low or a worse low than Hero with no high - and Hero might still make a wheel on the river.

All things considered (hopefully), I'd be inclined to call and also take the heat on the river.

But I'll agree it's opponent dependent.

Completely expected. I agree it's a good indication, but it "ain't necessarily so" (Gershwin).
Bad play. (I don't mean to insult you). In my humble opinion, since you have your low hand and are not really drawing, once you call on the turn, you're committed on the river. You could have folded before then, but not on the river, in my humble opinion.
Very bad lay-down. Strong, gutsy or courageous opponents are going to own you if you play that way very much.

Buzz

Buzz -

Thank you and thank you for your detailed reply. I appreciate your mathematical analysis. It was similar analysis that went through my head, my risking $6.56 to possibly win $1.88, that resulted in my folding on the Turn. Distinctly unpleasant indeed.

You bring up an interesting point. If it was completely expected that the others would fold to his pot sized bet on the Flop, since I was last to act, I probably should have raised on the Flop to find out where I was. I quite possibly would have taken control of the hand. If he called my raise and checked to me on the Turn, I could have taken a free card if needed (I missed my draw) or made a pot sized bet of my own and possibly taken the pot down on the Turn. If he reraised me on the Flop, I would probably throw away my hand as he was a passive player.

I'm from New York, believe me, no offense taken at all. I don't understand your analysis here as I did fold on the Turn, not on the River.

Thanks again for your provocative reply.

franknagaijr -

Thank you for your reply.

This is a very interesting thought. Since I had position on the UTG+1 even if he made his Flush and the board paired he probably would check to me on the River as he might have feared the Full House. Especially if he only had a high hand. My pot sized bet on the River might make him fold. Thanks.

In my opinion it would've been a better play to raise the guy on the flop but not pot (to keep the pot in control), since his most likely holding is two pair or a set, and he probably doesn't have the Triple Gutter Nutter (tm), and hopefully you can buy a free card if the turn is ugly. He might even have folded if you had made this semi bluff.

As for folding on the turn, in my opinion its pretty ridiculous to call theflop on the nut low draw when you have nothing else ( except the Triple Gutter Nutter [tm] of course ) and then fold when you hit the hand. More often than not, the guy is gonna still have his two pair, or maybe two pair with a low but not the nut low, and is trying to buy the pot. Sure, he might have the flush, but he might also have a worse low. I mean, when you're sitting there with the 24, 26, or 36 for low plus the flush, it aint like you aint gonna like your hand, and you're gonna start betting with it. If you were going to be afraid of a low club, in my opinion you should've folded on the flop. But basically, you get this K432ds once in a blue moon, and god knows how many times it comes a black QJ9 and you have to fold. You actually hit your A5x on the flop, this is the texture you want. Bet.

And while I'm on the rant, as ever I think you should've raised preflop at least the minimum, but from your position I like the 2.5x or 3x the BB. Think of it as like raising with 76 of diamonds in Holdem and play it with that mindset. Its deceptive. If you hit your hand you'll probably get paid off, since going crazy on that A5x flop after a PFR to most opponents will mean you have top set.

Last thing. If you in future do pull off the semi bluff like I would've, but it comes a low card on the turn that doesn't do anything for your hand and he checks to you, it will be harmless to check behind to keep the pot small since you have the uber counterfeit protection. Usually this means if you make an 8 low, it aint worth going crazy about it. Usually a 7, 6, 4, 3, or 2 will mean you're betting because you picked up extra outs which will have good scoop potential.

LUCIUS VARENUS -

Thanks for your reply.

I love it! Trade Mark noted.

What you are saying makes sense although I think that raising before the flop with this hand is a negative expected value bet. Like you said...

Thanks.

That's true. I've never seen or heard 'Triple Gutter Nutter' before, but I like it. NH.

I think this is a good fold. Villain is clearly not afraid of the flush.

Well played.

Not wise to chase for half the pot here.

Finally some sanity. Not worth it from risk/reward; consider % of time you will get quartered vs win half.

"Not wise to chase for half the pot here."

--ALWAYS good advice when down to 2 hands- unless a very high % of your stacks went in preflop

Glad you like my terminology. I should also edit my first post to make Uber Countefeit Protection, or UCP, a TM of mine.

As for "oh noes its a -EV bet", COME ON! In any poker game, I think if you want action, you gotta give action. Or at least give the impression that you're giving action. What you have to consider is that its a pot limit game, so there is implied odds involved where you're aiming to be playing for stacks with a nut hand or big nut draw or combination of those or at least something very close to that. So this perhaps -EV raise worth two or three big blinds can be more than compensated by the addition of your opponents stack to your own! So yeah, fine, its not as versatile as AA23ds or A234 or AK23ds or whatever other nitty hands you're after. I know! Like I said before its that 76 suited in Holdem. You occasionally play it for a raise to show people you don't necessarily have an amazing starting hand when you play a hand, that you're perhaps a little bit flamboyant or cavalier or even wild and reckless (even though you're not at all, hopefully), and also very importantly that just because you need to show that a wider range of flops can hit you. Just like with that 76 suited when it comes 359 with two of your suit, with your Double Gutter Flush Draw Shover (tm) you haven't necessarily missed it or have some lowly overpair (its just a freakin pair) like some ABC only play Aces tight player, now all of a sudden when it comes A5x, you don't necessarily have two pair or top set with a likely already counterfeited low draw. It makes you harder to read. And you get a ton of action on future hands, especially as its likely that the table will overadjust to you and will not realise you're only mixing it up.