No. At least not exactly. There are some general poker principles that more or less apply to all games. And there are some general Omaha-8 principles that more or less apply to fixed-limit, pot-limit, and no-limit.

But the play is different for fixed-limit, pot-limit, and no-limit.

You always need to adapt your play to your specific opponents. Exactly how well you're able to do that is a measure of your poker skill. All the poker games more or less have that in common.

In pot limit you often might calculate how much of your stack to bet so as to be able to push all-in on the third betting round and deprive a drawing opponent of the implied pot odds needed for his draw. And you might look at your opponent's stack and figure how to prevent your opponent from doing the same to you. Pot-limit Omaha-8 thus is a very strategic game.

The good news is you don't have to worry about that in no-limit. Regardless of the amount in the pot, you can shove all-in at any time.

The bad news is your opponent can do the same, shove all-in at any time - and then you have to guess if your opponent is bluffing or semi-bluffing or not.

There are snitches here and there, but I know of no book devoted to no-limit Omaha-8 play.

Post some hand histories, if you like. One hand per post, please. And ask a question or two with each hand history posted. You'll probably get some decent, thought provoking responses.

Look through the no-limit threads already posted in this forum. All the threads devoted to no-limit play should have thread titles that specify "no-limit" (or "NL"). They're easy to find.

Buzz

Hi. What in your opinion is the best site which offers rakeback for playing low stakes fixed limit omaha hi lo? The obvious answer is probably Full Tilt. Unfortunately I have a non-rakeback account at Full Tilt, before I realised the benefits of rakeback. I have accounts at Absolute and Cake but there are never any fixed limit omaha hi lo games running. Thanks.

If you didn't sign up through an affiliate you still might be able to get rakeback. Try e-mailing rakeback pros, which is the site that gives rakeback to pre-existing FT accounts. I'm not able to answer your question though, because I only play at FT & PS right now. I imagine FT is by far your best bet with the combination of low limit FL08, rakeback, and site traffic. Good luck.

Hey Buzz thanks for the detailed reponse.

I have another question, for the totally new player like me are there any good books or video series anyone knows of?

Right now my entire game consists of playing ring games and super tight only playing top 15% of hands and trying to think a lot about ranges on each flop, but i feel like there's a ton going on in the game i just cant recognise and a good video/book introduction to omaha8 would help me.

I'm not a total beginner at plo8, as I've played a fair amount of unl 6max on betfair, but this was only 'messing around'.

I have recently taken to the plo8 rush game on ftp.

I have no real 'book knowledge' of plo8, I don't have the Deppen book, nor have I seen any vids.

For me, the game seems to revolve around having a 2 in your hand, and as such i'll often try and play hands that hit better lows vs nit players who will have a2 a lot. In addition to this, I'm potting turn and river a lot vs players i think have a mediocre low only (I am bluffing with literally zero equity a lot - is this ever ok?)

I will try and get my strong hi only hands hu pre by raising, and will most often fire again as it's hard to flop a low.

Other than this, I'm completely lost, though I seem to be having good results.

Anyone have any general tips to improve my play, and does anyone playing plo8 rush have any specific tips for the format?

Opponent & Pos. Dependant IMO, & a lot sounds like a bit to much.
Interesting post, given good results.
Read this forum, & post hands. PAGING: Wackjob for possible RUSH PLO8 specific tactics.

Take regular breaks. Like play 1hour (assuming u do 4 tbls) take a 10min break, repeat. Take notes. The player pool is pretty small compared to nl/plo rush so u gonna play more hands vs the same players regulary.

screenname please.

If you don't tilt this might be the game for you.

I don't think the game revolves around having a deuce in your hand.

In high/low split pot games, in general, high cards beat middle and low cards for high while low cards beat middle and high cards for low. It's just that simple.

Deuces are thus good low cards. However, deuces are not generally very good cards to have for winning the high half of the pot.

Note that low is only possible for 3/5 of the hands played. In actual real full table and six max games, someone actually qualifies for low roughly half of the time.

But someone wins the high half of the pot 100% of the time.

Instead of a deuce, if you had to choose the most important card in the deck, it would be an ace. Easily. An ace is the highest high card and also the lowest low card.

But note very carefully that you must use exactly two cards from your hand to make either a high or a low. If you're going to play Omaha-8, you should start thinking in two-card combinations, rather than about single cards. Thus if you are dealt
A,2,5,9 as a starting hand, your hand has six two card combinations:
• A,2,
• A,5,
• A,9,
• 2,5,
• 2,9, and
• 5,9.

Before you see the flop, the first and third of these,
• A,2 and
• A,9,
are the best two card combinations in your starting hand and the second of these
• A,5, is the third best two card combination in your starting hand. Note that all three of these have an ace.

The other three two card combinations are relatively poor. Note that two of them have a deuce.
• 2,5 is not absolutely horrid, but is not considered good, even though it has two wheel cards, including a deuce.

Everything may change after the flop.

Yes if not overdone.

Bad idea, in my humble opinion. I realize some recommend it and I agree one should mix up one's play somewhat.

I understand what you mean, but it doesn't make good sense to me. Seems like a very reckless way to play the game. It's a tactic that probably works better in Texas hold 'em than in Omaha-8. You will tend to terrorize the table playing that way, and if your opponents are stupid enough they may never catch on. But I don't think that tactic will work well, except as an occasional change of pace, against good opponents.

Do whatever works for you. Aggressive play is recommended, but overly aggressive play is not, even though you'll have some good results sometimes with overly aggressive play.

Post some hand histories here and you might get some good feedback. One hand history per thread, please, and include a specific question or two. You'll get better answers to your questions if you don't overwhelm us with too much in one thread or post.

Buzz

This is def a newb hand. I'm playing some super microstakes O8, and this hand came up, and I'd like to hear if people are ok with how I played this? Excuse the bad formatting, its the best I could do.

Hand info:
Game: Omaha 8 PL
Blinds: $0.01/0.02

Table info:
Seat 2: Button ($.95)
Seat 3: HERO ($2.86) Posts small blind $0.01
Seat 4: BB ($1.78) Posts big blind $0.02
Seat 6: UTG ($1.91)
Seat 7: UTG+1 ($2.39)
Seat 8: MP1 ($.65)
Seat 9: CO ($1.38)

Dealt to SB A 2 3 5


Preflop: (Pot: $0.03)
CALL UTG $.02,CALL UTG+1 $.02, RAISE MP1 to $.11, CALL CO $.11, Button FOLD, CALL HERO $.10, FOLD BB, CALL UTG $.09, CALL UTG+1 $.09

MP1 had been raising 100% of the time, on the average 2 other people called. With MP1's open range, I thought this hand was good enough to see a flop, and very easy to get away from on the wrong flop.

Flop: (Pot: $.57)
2 5 8

CHECK SB, CHECK UTG, CHECK UTG+1, CHECK MP1, BET CO $.57, RAISE HERO to $2.28...

I wanted to check raise MP1 to get the money in good, as I had the nut low already , a wheel redraw and two pair, but when MP1 checked, and the last position bet, I figured that was still good enough for this play, since he could be trying to steal.


Good play/Bad Play? Good thought process/bad thought process?

I've been playing a decent amount of PLO8 and I love the game. I'm coming from mainly a NLHE 6max background (NL200-NL400 mostly) and I'm playing PLO850-100 to learn.

I've been thinking about 3betting ranges and wondered if there's any good info/threads on this. Here are some of my early questions/thoughts - (assume 100bb deep vs a decent reg rather than a brainless monkey)

1) Since 3betting AA generally turns your hand face up to even the least observant opponents, I understand that u need to mix in other 3bets to balance your AAxx. However, what if you went the other way and had basically a zero 3betting range? It seems that this game is sooooo flop oriented and 3betting can become quite costly if you 3bet, cbet and lose by either giving up or get jammed on. Obv there will be times when you're happy to get your stack in, but many of those times you will not be such a big favorite, and most likely will get the money in lite because of stack/pot sizes. Stacks become so shallow that u basically only have the flop to play w/ probably little fold equity.

2) My other thought is on calling 3bets - For example, say I raise AJ28s and get 3bet by a tighter player. His range range of AAxx and A23xss, AKQxs, etc is going to heavily dominate me. Is this a spot where people are folding or do basically just have to call and hope to catch a favorable flop? There is not much room to float/bluff 100bb deep on most flops.

- also if I call w/ a low wheel/wrap type of hand, many times I'm hoping to see an A flop, but AA is such a strong part of villains ranges. And if I call w/ a strong broadway hand, I have a 1 way hand that is once again dominated by villains range.

TL;DR

1) what types of hands are defensible vs reasonable tight 3betting range? how deep do we have to be?
2) what do you think are the implications of having NO 3betting range at all?
3) what kinds of hands do you expand your 3betting range with? for value/bluff?

Everything looks fine. Check/raise or betting directly are both fine. Whatever will allow you to get more money in on the flop is best. I like the check/raise here also.

Nice starting hand. You can get a rough idea of how good it is by going to ProPokerTools, typing the hand, as "Ad2c2d5h" into the hand box, and clicking on "rank."
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8. In this case the rank is 7, meaning this starting hand is probably better than 93% of the starting hands anyone may have been dealt and probably worse than 6% of the starting hands anyone may have been dealt. It's probably the best starting hand at the table.

Five out of seven of you see the flop. Assume your opponent's hands are grouped in sixths, top or 1st sixth, 2nd sixth, 3rd sixth, 4th sixth, 5th six and 6th or bottom sixth.
Make them, respectively
• 1%-16%
• 17%-32%
• 33%-49%
• 50%-66%
• 67%-82%
• 83%-100%.
That's not always going to be the case, but it's a reasonable estimation of average.

Assume only the best four of there hands saw the flop and use the following numbers for your simulation:
• 1%-16%
• 17%-32%
• 33%-49%
• 50%-66%
That will give you a rough idea of where you stand before the flop. Here's the simulation result:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ad2c2d5h	26.64%	61,584	97,008	4,635	153,315	61,799
1%-16%	21.19%	71,033	117,904	11,234	34,126	57,130
17%-32%	17.80%	65,137	117,356	12,453	19,369	12,898
33%-49%	17.20%	63,689	120,043	11,191	14,522	6,259
50%-66%	17.17%	65,445	122,927	10,912	9,756	4,299

As you can see, you probably have the best starting hand of this group.

Fine. You also could raise if you liked. I generally prefer to wait and see the flop before making a move, but not always, depending on the effect I think my raise will have on my opponents. Without a good idea, I'd think of this hand as a "pulling" hand and want to play against as many opponents as possible. But different people have different playing styles and everyone doesn't agree with me on this point.

I agree.

Not a good flop for Hero. Those of us with experience playing Omaha-8 see that immediately. But it's hard for a newb to see, especially if you're used to Texas hold 'em. (Two flopped small pairs are substantially better in Texas hold 'em than they are in Omaha-8).

What happened that is bad is Hero's counterfeit low protection got counterfeited (and thus eliminated) and there's a club draw that Hero doesn't have, but that an opponent may have.

You can go back to the ProPokerTools site and re-simulate, using the same hands as before, but including this flop. If you do, you'll see a substantial drop in Hero's pot equity (related to e.v.).

Voila!

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 258

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ad2c2d5h	19.28%	1,926	209,952	2,458	7,108	28,054
1%-16%	36.19%	51,981	88,871	8,728	308,703	67,442
17%-32%	19.57%	22,648	91,207	11,769	111,607	54,787
33%-49%	13.34%	12,697	95,356	12,053	49,499	19,047
50%-66%	11.62%	8,842	91,876	11,560	35,743	12,385

As you can see, Hero's pot equity has dropped from a pre-flop 26.64% to a post flop 19.28%.

Not a good move.

It's true he could be trying to steal. But look at the simulation results. Someone probably has a better hand than Hero. And since CO is the one who has bet, it's reasonable to assume CO is the one with the better hand.

In addition, Hero should still be pulling with this hand, hoping as many opponents with crappy lows as possible continue to the showdown. If the raise could knock out another A3YZ, then it would make sense to push - but it won't. Anyone else with A3YZ will continue.

The raise is not all bad; Hero does promote his chances to win for high by raising.

Overall bad play. Texas hold 'em oriented thought process. (But this is Omaha-8, a different game).

Buzz

Not that I recall. (I could be wrong about that).

"too long; don't read?"

"too long; didn't read?"

Why would you include that acronym in a post with questions you seemingly want answered?

Whatever. I wrote a response to your other questions, but the effect of your acronym was such that I was afraid my response might be too long for you, so I deleted it.

Poof.

Buzz

Wow, Buzz, amazing response, thanks! I don't want to turn this into a full blown hand discussion since I should just start a new thread for that, but just wanted to make a couple small comments.

First thanks for the Propokertools simulations link, I definitely need to play with that more.

Second, I agree that the hand is a pulling hand. While it can get a nut flush, in general its much more of a one sided hand, so I didn't think it was good for a raise.

Third, when you say not a good flop for hero, this is probably the only point of contention I have. I flopped the nut low, and while an ace or three coming counterfeits me to a worse low, I still end up with a low because of the five, and those cards are equally likely to counterfeit anyone else with a low. I'm really only smoked EV wise by A345, no? (on the low side).

Finally, I agree 100% that my bottom two pair is unimpressive. I honestly wasn't trying to overvalue it, but I was (as you mentioned) definitely shooting for pricing out flush and high draws to get the money in against the table idiot (which in retrospect is a bit suspect since the table idiot was not the bettor). Your analysis of my flop equity was perfect in pointing out to me the flaw in using this logic in this situation, because it looks like there was likely to be someone with a better hand that was going to be coming along for the ride no matter what. Thanks.

FYI, you put A225 to get a rank seven hand, my hand was a235, which shows up as a rank 5 hand. That is interestingly surprising in its own right to me, as in 08 I think I would prefer more low straight possibilities than ever flopping a set of twos. Shows what I know.

please rewrite said post if you don't mind

What a bone head mistake I made! You're right! It is a good flop for Hero. My apologies for my errors. (I also simulated the wrong hand, a typo I should have caught).

You're welcome. And again, sorry for my bone head error.

Buzz

Any good articles on mtt strategies?

I don't recall ever seeing a "how to" article specifically about Omaha-8 mtt strategy. One of our posters (not me) had a series of articles in the 2+2 on-line magazine a while back regarding his successful experience in a big tournament. There was some strategy inherent in the article. I don't think the articles are currently available. And they're probably not exactly what you're seeking.

From time to time someone starts a thread in this forum related to some aspect of mtt strategy.

You might check out the 2+2 Tournament section forums.

My experience in Omaha-8 tournaments is most (but not all) of the players are regular tournament players rather than regular Omaha-8 cash game players.

Buzz

thanks man. it just seems like some players raise anything, go all-in with anything and i was wondering what the thought process was behind this? do they figure if they play 5 tournys and use the strategy mentioned above, they will eventually hit at least in 1 tourny and possibly make it to a final table which would at least even things out?

You're welcome.

I don't play that way.
1. Perhaps the time spent is important to some players who may want to either amass a large stack early or bust out of the tournament and go do something else, perhaps play in some other poker game.
2. Perhaps some players get a thrill from taking risks.
3. Perhaps people are simply gambling, hoping to strike it big.

There may be other, better reasons for someone to play this way.

I don't know. Perhaps. As I wrote, I don't play that way.

You do have to be careful of maniacs. They're not all stupid.

Buzz

Does omaha o8 have a Brags beat and variance thread???

If not, why not??

Omaha-8 forum posters with "brags, beats and variance" posts put these posts in the monthly "catch all" thread (formerly known as the monthly "low content" thread).

There's no separate "brags, beats and variance" thread in the Omaha-8 forum because it doesn't seem necessary. Most of the posts in the monthly "catch all" thread are related to brags, beats and variance.

If I catch them before there anyone replies, I more or less routinely merge threads that seem to belong to the brags, beats and variance category into the monthly catch all thread. I suppose we could have a separate thread for brags, beats and variance.

My thinking on the subject is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

But it's not a big deal with me one way or the other.

This is not really a topic for the newb's thread. I'll leave your post and my reply here for a day or two and then move them both into the monthly catch all thread.

Buzz